Been using this for about a year on a p9 pro. It works very well. I hear the google tap to pay does not work, but I've never tried it. However Vipps with their tap to pay works fine. BankID works but not with biometric login, which some things require IIRC. And for some reason DnB private works fine, but you are not allowed in on the corp app.
It's mind boggingly stupid that they lock down apps like this, when you can just open the thing in a website anyway. I can use my bank on some linux distro, crazy that they trust me since it is not Windows - the truly secure OS!
Knew about those things before I started, so all in all I'm pretty happy. I'd recommend NOT using different users for different things (I started with banking etc in one profile, that ended up being a huge PITA and according to their docs it is mostly security theater anyway). Happy tinkering!
Yes, I've been doing that since 2009 on Ubuntu and Debian but there are several caveats.
One of those banks has its own TOTP device and they won't replace it when the battery dies. It's almost 20 years old now. Then it's the fingerprint sensor on my phone.
The other banks authenticate accesses and many operations with either their app + fingerprint (all of them) or SMS (some of them). So basically I would still need a phone with a blessed OS. I could buy the cheapest one and store it in a drawer, but it's still a dependency on Google or Apple.
GrapheneOS requirement of Pixel devices is a dependency on Google too.
> It's mind boggingly stupid that they lock down apps like this, when you can just open the thing in a website anyway. I can use my bank on some linux distro...
Not in Spain. I can access my bank's website but I can't do anything without their bank app. Even sometimes they require to confirm my identity using their app in order to access their website.
I have several linux phones but I can only do banking with their app downloaded from Aurora Store in my Vollaphone.
This should be illegal that the government forces people into apps controlled by private, commercial entities. I call such a government corrupt.
Here in central Europe I can still access the bank website fine without smartphone. I need a physical device to yield a TAN though, but I can access and do online transactions fine. So I think something is wrong with the spanish government. People need to protest.
I don't know which banks you are using but in my case I work with five Spanish banks and I can do everything from their websites, no app required. Yes, they try to push you to use their app, some tried to activate mobile 2fa for me when this psd2 thing became mandatory but I always told them their app doesn't work on my phone (which is true) and they offered me alternate methods like sms.
> Not in Spain. I can access my bank's website but I can't do anything without their bank app. Even sometimes they require to confirm my identity using their app in order to access their website.
> Not in Spain. I can access my bank's website but I can't do anything without their bank app.
I don't know about Spain specifically, but as far as I understand it no bank in the European Economic Area + UK should allow banking via just the website alone anymore, because of the "Revised Payment Services Directive" (PSD2) regulation.
Essentially, banks are required to implement "strong customer authentication", which in essence is just multi-factor authentication with a password + either biometrics or a security device of some sort.
And in practise that means a banking app, because most people do not want a separate token they have to buy and can lose. Though a lot of banks do offer those as well.
In Estonia you can easily do banking via the website on all the banks (LHV, Swedbank, SEB). That said, we do have it all integrated with our digital-ID (which every ID card has private keys encoded into with a PIN you know) so it's not like you can access it with a simple password (our online voting works the same way).
(When will people learn that biometrics are not another factor: they're entirely public and irrevocable. It's not just security theater, but Apple & Google know that this forces you into their ecosystem, which should be illegal. Of course, Brussels is full of rubes anyway.)
I have been using GrapheneOS for a few months in Spain with and out of three banking apps only one gave me trouble, I had to enable "Exploit Protection Compatibility Mode" on "app information". Personally I refuse to pay with the phone so I am okay not having that option.
If someone wants to try Graphene os maybe that option will work on their banks too.
Not in Spain. I can access my bank's website but I can't do anything without their bank app. Even sometimes they require to confirm my identity using their app in order to access their website.
I've seen this elsewhere, and it's absolutely ridiculous.
Why?
Because in almost all cases, the apps may only be installed with Google Play, and require the framework to work correctly. And that means?
If you are not in good standing with Google, you cannot bank!!
I cannot stress how inane it is, to have Google or Apple as the gatekeeping to identify verification. How not having an active, in good standing account with one of these two, means you cannot bank.
And it's happening more and more.
Meanwhile, banks -- which tend to make billions in profits quarterly, do this to save on infrastructure costs. They do it so they don't have to stand up their own push servers, or have an app which doesn't require firebase.
Well cry me a river, boo-hoo Mr Banker, I'm not even remotely interested in you saving on infra-structure costs at the loss of autonomy. And on top of this, many banks are reducing hours, closing branches, claiming that they don't need them.
Leaving absolutely no other choice.
This sort of thing should be illegal. Being in Spain, but requiring a US megacorp to tell your own bank, that you're you.
> They do it so they don't have to stand up their own push servers
I don't agree with this dependency on being in good standing with Google either.
But there is a technical reason that isn't wanting to avoid using their push servers. It is about battery usage and radio bandwidth.
Keeping open an idle connection over WebSocket, long-poll HTTP or TCP/IP needs regular pings (typically 30 seconds are used), one ping per connection. Otherwise your app can't be sure to receive messages from the server in real time, as the connection can disappear into CGNAT or similar hole where it doesn't receive messages sent by the server. To an app not using pings to check, such a blackholed connection is indisinguishable from an idle connection with no pending messages.
Waking the radio every 30 seconds, times 2 (back and forth), times the number of applications wanting push messages, would be quite battery draining, and those pings in aggregate can even amount to a significant amount of data usage for users on smaller plans.
So there is a battery and radio advantage in using shared push servers, which only need a single idle connection to be maintained, shared among all apps.
But there's another level to this, when the mobile OS is involved. This isn't available to regular developers using TCP/IP, HTTP or WebSockets.
The mobile network itself has to maintain handset connection liveness to the nearest tower, at a lower level than IP pings, and this is obviously optimised for battery and radio performance, and always running.
With arrangements in place with the mobile networks (which Google and Apple have), the mobile OS can leverage that for more reliable, lower power push notifications, by either requiring the network to send something technically similar to a low-level SMS when there's an outstanding message, or by guaranteeing their special push IP connection will stay live by itself (no CGNAT blackhole) or be notified if something happens to it. This allows the mobile OS to receive events from the shared push server reasonably quickly, without needing any radio activity at all to keep the idle connection open (over what's already required for handset connection to the tower).
I thought this was what Larry meant when he said surveillance will keep citizens on their best behavior. If one’s reputation score is low, sorry no money. Also, if anyone in one’s network has bad behavior, no money and no friends. Maybe the kids will learn to accept it, but being of the last analog generation, to me it seems like a painful future.
As far as I remember, last time I needed to use Google play on a shared phone I could just create a random Google address (I mean, completely invented name, etc.) and it allowed me to do anything, just as my normal Android.
I am too lazy to test, but did this change? Can't you just make a "fake" account and continue with your life? The phone company knows where you are, the bank knows what you purchase. Compared to that Google will know far less (ofc, if you don't activate everything)
I find it much more insane that it was possible for so long to do banking WITHOUT strong authentication (however implemented) by just providing those 3 numbers on the back of the card (strong security!)
Especially with how things are currently, I whole heartedly agree - you cannot operate as a human being in Europe without having a good standing with either Alphabet or Apple.
Absolute madness or complete nonsense - I have neither an Apple account or device, nor a Google account or mandated device (e/os on Fairphone 3+) and operate perfectly successfully in the UK with (almost [1.]) zero friction.
1. Revolut app stopped working so I emptied my account and opened a Wise account which is fully administer-able from their website. Revolut has subsequently started working again after a couple of app/OS updates.
I'd also recommend to slowly migrate to GrapheneOS, getting to know where the boundaries are for specific apps. Once you've got your 'dailies' all up and running predictably, then you're good to go, but it could take a few days depending on how much spare time you have to find said boundaries. Having said that, I turn on most of the higher level security protections, which quite a few apps need exceptions from.
But, yes, you can't tap to pay and it's unlikely you ever will. Banking apps will be hit and miss depending on their (generally hypocritical) paranoia levels.
I pay with a tap-to-pay card, and I have never needed to do banking related things immediately, I've always done it via the bank's website.
I also still have a not-very-old 'normal' android phone for some edge cases - which are few and far between (actually, I think it's usually to cast youtube to the TV since I only have the revanced youtube app on the GrapheneOS device).
P.S. On the use of profiles, I use them to separate work apps and notifications from personal, from sporting club, from X, Y, and Z. Yes, they're a pain in the arse to switch between, but I'd argue it's more of a pain in the arse to have them all jumbled together causing even more notifications, frustrations, and distractions from whatever one should actually be concentrating on in the present moment.
I agree that the locking down is truly stupid. For what it’s worth, the reasoning for locking down mobile apps is allegedly that mobile users are a less technologically competent demographic than desktop users. I do not think so myself, given the difficulty in trying Graphene vs. Desktop Linux.
“Installing alternate OSs” is juicy bait for “tech enthusiasts” who know just enough to be effectively worse off than someone with a browser, yes, and at its core is this holier than thou attitude.
> when you can just open the thing in a website anyway. I can use my bank on some linux distro
Unfortunately not.
I'm in the UK. Two of my personal banks, all four business banks that I need to use, and several credit cards, require authentication using their phone app to confirm login on their website.
None of those I've seen are using TOTP or SMS, for which I could use a general security service. All use their own phone or tablet app. One does something interesting where the website shows a unique QR code on each login, the phone app reads it with the phone camera, and then website login proceeds instantly without clicking anything.
Oh, and some of them also require phone app confirmation for card purchase transactions.
When my last phone's screen stopped working, I called one bank's "phone banking" line (using another phone of course) to make an urgent transaction, and they told me they can't do that, as only service they offer by phone is registering a new phone or tablet. They told me explicitly that it's not possible to login to their web-based banking service without using their app for authentication, and on a registered device.
It's the reason I have my current phone. I had to buy a cheap-ish Android in a hurry from a local shop, in order to proceed with my bank transaction.
Back to the main topic: I love the idea of a properly open source phone, I used to own not one but two Nokia N900s, and I once toyed with the idea of building my own Linux phone from scratch, big project though that is.
But the security ecosystem around logins has changed, and so have the services I depend on. These days I use many bank and other financial-service related apps, and I'm not, in practice, free to switch providers. So I couldn't use a Nokia N900 or modern equivalent any more as my only mobile device. I'd have to carry a second phone as well.
(Banking and other service authentications are also the only reason I have my current passport. I resented having to pay to renew my expired passport, given I had no plans to travel (small children) and the expired passport used to be accepted, but I found some banks, credit cards and even government services increasingly requiring to see a non-expired passport from time to time. When I asked one of them what do they do for the large number of people who don't have one, they simply told me they close those people's accounts and that's ok, they don't need to serve everyone. But that's another story.)
I was the one that submitted the DNB Bedrift app report to the sec dev repo! I contacted DNB but they never responded to my email. I wonder if we can find a dev? I believe that's how the private app got fixed.
Want to use Vipps tæpp so much but I have Nordea for private and they don't allow it on their cards, for whatever godforsaken reason.
Hah - both were in my browser history, yes I know them :) I misunderstood and thought you had sent direct emails to relevant parties arguing for why they should be allowed on grapheneos.
Oh I also misunderstood! I did send an email to DNB Bedrift customer service about Graphene support, citing the private app fix. They technically gave me a response that it would be looked into, but it felt very handwavy, and that was 3 months ago. It was via the bedrift portal, there is a "Send E-Post" button.
I don't know how to contact the engineering team. IIRC that is how the private app got fixed, someone got word to someone on the inside.
You're doomed to this issue with old phones in general.
Even un-modified you'll then be stuck with an old version of Android that doesn't support the latest versions of apps and the old versions of apps won't work properly.
It's really a shame because a lot of old phones work perfectly fine otherwise.
Generally Lineage is the latest. Unfortunately, there are other issues (such as the blobs that Lineage needs drifting out of date, and it's usually suggested that you'll should backup and then wipe to upgrade to the next major release, etc.)
I hope this isn't going to be the case universally. If my bank cuts off my access from my browser-on-linux setup, then I'm finding an alternative bank (hopefully some will always exist), which I don't say lightly since I've been with my current bank since I was old enough to have a bank account.
I personally tend to own two Phones. One all-day carry GrapheneOS device (Pixel 8) and an older WiFi and at home only iPhone for all payment and ensurance stuff.
This is inconvenient in some ways, but at least it is sort of privacy as good as it gets while still being able to run official apps when I need them at home.
To de-google the phone, I use F-Droid as primary App store, Aurora as fallback for non-f-droid Apps and as a last resort Obtainium to install Apps that are not in these stores.
The only google App I really "need" (kind of) is the Camera App, which is sandboxed via GrapheneOS Storage Spaces and without Network permission (why would a camera need internet?).
To backup my phone, I use the integrated GrapheneOS Solution (seedvault!?) for storage and apps, immich for Photos and MyPhoneExplorer for Contacts.
Sometimes it is a bit hard to find good apps for specific purposes, so for everyone interested, here is a list of Apps that I personally use or have used.
Newpipe - Youtube Client
Audiobookshelf - Audiobooks
Voice (PaulWoitaschek) - Local Audiobook Player
Substreamer - Music
DSub - Music (alternative)
VLC - Video-Player
Organic Maps - Google Maps alternative (not as good)
PDF Doc Scanner - Open Source Document Scanner
Wireguard - VPN
Immich - Photo Backup / Viewer
LocalSend - File Transfer
K9 Mail / FairMail - Email Client
KOReader - Ebooks
Binary Eye - QRCodes and Barcodes
Pure Todo - Self hosted PWA PHP Todo List
Signal - Messenger
Open Camera - Open Source Camera App
* KeePassDX -- password manager, shares DB with KeePassXC on desktop, which is synced via NextCloud. Also functions as a TOTP authenticator. (https://www.keepassdx.com/)
* DAVx5 -- CalDAV and CardDAV client; keeps mobile calendar and contact list synced with private NextCloud server. (https://www.davx5.com/)
And I don't see F-Droid itself mentioned -- it's the most popular repository of FOSS software for Android, with an accompanying app: https://f-droid.org.
I like Organic Maps because it isn't full of the social things. Every time I open Google Maps it shows that card at the bottom with "what's popular in your area", full of pictures of people's breakfasts and other nonsense. Organic Maps is free of this noise.
Also, the desktop client on Linux is quite useful.
Alternatives for Windows etc. are Cruiser Maps, a Java application (and also available as an Android app).
All map apps I tested so far were kind of usable but nowhere near Apple or Google maps. Especially for longer trips I often got lost and had to re-navigate by different reasons (voice announcement too late, no lane instructions, etc.).
However, I listed it because it is a "usable" alternative that works offline.
I recently PR'ed some improvements within the search (series and part are now searchable).
I also made a custom fork with some quality of life improvements, like series and part visible on screen, headset remote click patterns (tap for play/pause, double-tap for next, etc.).
Been running GrapheneOS for a while on a Pixel 9, and extremely happy with it! Apart from the usual perks of the FOSS ecosystem, there are a few things specific to GrapheneOS that are not immediately apparent but have turned out to work very well -
1. The Pixel camera app works, including all modes and settings. A camera that takes good photos was absolutely a requirement for me, and the FOSS camera apps are not quite as good yet.
2. I don't have Google Photos and the pixel camera app tries to launch google photos when you want to review the picture you just took. But there is a FOSS app called GPhotosShim that uses the same namespace as google photos and thus fools the camera into launching that app instead. Once launched, it just launches whatever media management app you actually have configured, so it's seamless.
3. Android Auto works!
4. Android QuickShare works!
5. NFC tags / Yubikey integration works!
6. Screencasting works!
7. Sensor access and internet access can be disabled for apps by default (and I do).
Does that require being logged into a Google account? How to ensure Google knows nothing about your shares?
I have Graphene w/ Google Play Services (required for my job) and would love a easy way to share files/info with various devices (incl. iOS/macOS which I remember should work with QuickShare in the future) but will avoid a service that shares data with Google.
A quick question from potential buyer of next generation of pixel phones, since samsung keeps disappointing hard with their top line - is there any difference in quality between default photo app and what graphene os bundles with?
Pixel are supposed to be very good in photography, part hardware and part software, and my concern would be degradation of that software part. With small kids, there is nothing more important on phone for me than photos/video quality these days (apart from never going into apple ecosystem, I am just incompatible with that company' philosophy).
Or its just about slapping some commercial photo app (like I heard from other photographers is often done on apple to get most out of it, but forgot the name of the app) and not caring about this?
Yes, it's a huge difference. However, you can install the very latest Google Camera app through the Aurora app (or Play Market), and it works perfectly except you don't get photo preview within that app; to fix that minor issue, you can install the Gphotoshim which someone else mentioned in the comments.
On the other hand, if you switch to the latest Google camera app, you will not really be participating in making the open source version better.
And once you are on GrapheneOS, break free from your proprietary watch ecosystem and switch to GadgetBridge (https://gadgetbridge.org/)
I run a Thinkpad with NixOS and KDE, a Pixel 9 with GrapheneOS, and an Amazfit watch paired with GadgetBridge on my phone.
It's a testament to the hard work of the FOSS maintainers of these projects, and the spirit of open source, that everything works flawlessly together without any cloud service sucking up my data. For example, I can control youtube and music playback on my laptop with my watch because KDE Connect syncs my laptop and my phone, and gadgetbridge syncs the phone and the watch. The breezy weather app on my phone can automatically push its data to gadgetbridge which in turn pushes the data to the watch. And so on. So many little things, developed independently, working like a single well oiled machine.
I tried GadgetBridge because it cannot sync the activity files (.fit and/or .gpx) so I still had to plug the watch into a computer to keep the actual data.
So I ended installing ActivityLog2[0] to do something with the files I had to have on desktop and GadgetBridge was of little use because relying on GadgetBridge without actually syncing the files might make me forget about doing the backup to a device I control (GrapheneOS or a computer).
As soon as GadgetBridge support syncing the files from the watch to the app (or any local folder on Android), I'll install it again and stop doing the manual backups over USB. Syncthing will do it automatically.
Setting up GadgetBridge is very easy since it's just an android app. No flashing firmware etc. However, not all gadgets are equally supported, and you should check the support status of your device - https://gadgetbridge.org/gadgets/ (I bought my watch only after checking that page for compatibility).
> And once you are on GrapheneOS, break free from your proprietary watch ecosystem and switch to GadgetBridge
Then switch back to Google/Apple after half a year when you discover that you can’t run
- your banking app
- any government app
- the app required to access large sports events
- the pandemic tracking app without which you can’t enter an airport
- various other random apps
because they ALL detect that you’re running on a phone with an unlocked bootloader and will flat out refuse to start. And for many of those, there is no legal alternative.
(The extent of this varies depending on where you live, of course.)
> - the pandemic tracking app without which you can’t enter an airport
Not sure if airports specifically used another mechanism, but the Android contact tracing APIs were actually reimplemented in microG, allowing these apps to work even on custom roms.
Your other examples don't hold universally either (banking apps are compatible with un-rooted custom ROMs more often than not, and not sure how many sports event apps use integrity checks), but your general point stands that it may come with trade-offs.
YMMV. I run sandboxed Google Play Services on GrapheneOS so almost every app works. My digital payments app works, and the same with most government apps I have tried. My private bank's app doesn't work, but I just use their website for the handful of times a year I need to access it.
No banking app on phone because why; no government app because oh fuck why, whats wrong with your government (at least in primary phone and I never needed secondary); app for sport events - thats just me but I prefer doing sports rather than passively watch them, so 0 loss; pandemic what? its 2026 and I never saw such requirement in Europe, Africa nor Asia; no other app requires that.
Thats not coming from some paranoid security person, just regular (software dev) joe.
Until these OS also start putting forward something like WebOS that tried to get phones back to on open web, there is no breaking the binary format and Appstore monopoly.
I wish Europe would have forced that 10 years ago since the US is beyond saving.
This is especially interesting in regard to the recent HN dicussion on spyware by for-profit intel firms having access to Whatsapp, Telegram, Signal, etc. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47033976) through OS-level no-click hijacks.
I wonder how secure GrapheneOS is in that regard, and what the other contenders are?
Hard to say how it fares against those specific attacks but some of the vulnerabilities that will go out in the mid-2026 on the mainstream handsets are already patched: https://grapheneos.org/releases#2026021200
(it's not magic. All big vendors have these details, just choose to take their sweet time to patch them. GOS has partnered with a major OEM vendor who provides them with access)
GrapheneOS have hardened_malloc which is a huge advantage, I think. It makes the weird machines problem much harder. I would say be very careful, because you can still get previews of images, or old and weird media formats that could be exploitable, and android/GrapheneOS doesn't have the same sorts of policy as say Apple with the iMessage blast door. They control safari, etc.
Android's attack surface seems pretty jagged. For example there is only one webrender engine on iOS, where you can run anything you like on Android/GrapheneOS.
GrapheneOS themselves dont pretend that their secure from that level of attack, but its about evaluating your own threat level. State sponsered actors aren't burning zero days on the vast majority of people, and you only need to look at how badly several european governments want to ban graphene and similar to see that such exploits aren't even being burned on organised crime. Realistically unless you're a journalist or considered a political target you're gonna be fine with graphene.
It's quite secure against casual attacks, but a proprietary mobile platform has inherent issues wrt. withstanding even mildly sophisticated attackers, including mercenary spyware services. You still have a huge attack surface from all sorts of proprietary firmware blobs and hardware IP blocks that are running directly on the SoC. It's not clear that it's really worth even trying to secure it as opposed to just treating it like an untrusted toy.
well, a concerted attack could easily subvert the baseband if you have a few million dollars and the correct letterhead or private contacts.
GrapheneOS really wants the software in the phone to not pwn the phone. This is good. Its a different, and much more difficult problem to secure the connection to the telco, and the larger internet, because the transport is attacker controlled.
Think of it this way: Say you use Qubes because security is valued very highly for you. Even if you run Qubes, if your router is controlled by your attacker, what kind of a security guarantee could you really get for yourself?
I've used GrapheneOS on a Pixel 3a, 5, 8 and 10 Pro so far and it's worked really well. I couldn't imagine going back.
The only things I'm missing (which don't exist in other OS'es either):
- Being able to configure contact scopes in such a way that the app in question only gets access to the phone numbers of the contacts belonging to the label I specified, e.g. "WhatsApp", nothing more. Yes, one can of course add contacts' phone numbers to the contact scopes "by hand" but 1) there is a limit on the number of contacts/phone numbers configured this way, and 2) AFAIK there is no way to back up that list.
- Being able to install browser extensions in Vanadium.
- Being able to configure multiple VPNs at once, e.g. for Tailscale, ad filtering, blocking HackerNews during times when I should be doing something more productive :) etc., especially since the Vanadium browser doesn't support extensions (see above). I was hoping that the Rethink app might implement something like this (https://github.com/celzero/rethink-app/issues/1047) but it doesn't look like it's coming and it'd probably be much better to do this at the OS level.
I've been using GrapheneOS for about 3 years now. For the most part, it works very well. I don't have any issues with banking apps, nor any other closed source apps. I'm using two profiles both with sandboxed Google play installed. I'm logged in into my private Google account on the work profile.
However, there was one case that lead me to thinking about ditching grapheneos to this day.
I installed Uber on my phone and I was able to successfully create an account and use it. When it came to booking a ride, the app crashed and I had to log in again. Once I did that, I was told that my account has been suspended for violating the terms of services. All I did to that point was creating an account and booking a ride.
I was able to resolve the issue luckily after a few days and going back and fourth a couple of times with the Uber support, however, the risk of getting banned on any such platform is still risky, and thus I'm not sure if grapheneos is usable if you need to use such services.
Maybe not being able to use Uber isn't the downside you think it is though. UK centric view but call a cab and pay in cash, you haven't comprimised your security and you're not engaging with an unethical business.
What exactly is the risk of getting temporarily banned on Uber? You have to use a different taxi app? As if such a thing even exists?!? Unacceptable!!
Every app on my phone has at least one other app, usually already installed, that can replace it. This wasn't intentional, it just happened naturally. Unless all two or three apps in a category get blocked for me at the same time, this already unlikely situation is barely an inconvenience.
The key phrase there is "such services". It's not just about one problem once with Uber, it's the risk of problems like this with any service of that kind, or really any service you rely on.
If using GrapheneOS significantly increases the risk a person won't be able to use a service they rely on, that may be unacceptable.
But that's my point, what one irreplacable app/service do people rely on? The only thing that comes to my mind is messaging apps, but even there, almost everyone I need to talk to is reachable on at least one other app. I have multiple taxi apps because I compare prices and availability, like any reasonable consumer should. I have two banks, but even if I didn't, I can pay by cash or card, not just phone. If I need to make a bank transfer, I can go to a branch or do it online. I have two map and navigation apps because they have different strengths and weaknesses. My email is accessible by browser if the app breaks.
I'm not doing this on purpose, I just now scrolled through my app list looking for one app that would actually fuck me up if I lost it in an instant. There are none. And I'm not currently even running graphene or anything else, just a stock Samsung.
It's a shame only Pixel phones are supported. I have PWM sensitivity and Pixel phones are notoriously bad for this, my eyes hurt when I look at one for more than 30mn. Due to the lack of good, secure alternative, I have had to give up on privacy in exchange for manufacturer updates.
Interesting article. Let's now hope for a reasonable price, even though it will be challenging for their team. It would be a shame if the target audience is limited to overpaid nerds like most of HN.
I'm in the same boat. Bought a 9 Pro XL and had to return it. Hope their OEM will use DC dimming for the screens or have an IPS option.
In the meantime, I use a Motorola G Power 2024 which has IPS. I'm very much a non-expert but made a minor hobby out of trying to de-google it as much as possible.
Never signed into Google with it. Using NetGuard with a whitelist to prevent most of the phoning home. Uninstalled or disabled most built-in apps. The apps I use are installed via either Obtanium or Fdroid. Have Dropbox from Aurora. Use Motorola's private space for keeping some data and apps in a separate, supposedly secure locker.
I'm sure this doesn't come close to GrapheneOS's security level but it's the best I can do within the limitations of this device. It was a fun mini-project. NetGuard is invaluable for this purpose. Almost feels like the phone is truly mine.
While I admire GrapheneOS and its goals, I feel that until we free the proprietary baseband processors and their RTOS from the grips of Qualcomm and friends it's a pyrrhic victory, at best.
Unless the next best thing makes you think you are already achieving the "perfect solution" for what you think you care about, but in truth does not.
I'm not a mobile phone security expert but my feeling is that in the case of GrapheneOS - which target is probably high-profile people at risk of state actors et similia attacks - a zero-day in the closed source firmware from Qualcomm will probably screw you anyway.
I understand that you are anyway reducing the attack surface (now they need to target the modem firmware specifically), I understand the concept of security in depth and I also understand that by using GrapheneOS you are already placing mitigations for many other known and unknown attack vectors. But still...
> a zero-day in the closed source firmware from Qualcomm will probably screw you anyway.
All the devices that GrapheneOS supports implement a clear separation of the baseband and the CPU in the form of SMMU, ARMs version of IOMMU. So a zero-day in the baseband does not immediately screw you - unless the code on the CPU side also contains vulnerabilities or there is a major flaw in the SMMU implementation that somehow breaks isolation.
Thanks for the clarification (and to the others that answered as well).
I probably explained myself in a shitty manner, I didn't try to downplay GrapheneOS efforts, and I should have kept my initial statement about "next best thing can create a false sense of completeness" as a generic remark and not specific to GrapheneOS, for which I don't have enough knowledge to know if it applies or not.
fyi a Cell Site Simulator can masquerade as the legitimate telco operator and push type 0 messages to the handset.
What that means is they can push malicious settings and configurations (Definitely) and probably malicious firmware to the handset at will. They don't need to code this, they buy the software packages from the usual suspects. Adversary simply needs to put a drt box or a hailstorm or what-not close enough to the handset to do the work.
The baseband can do a lot, it has dma (if I recall correctly) and can almost certainly screen look, and extract information from some but not all base bands. This varies.
GrapheneOS cannot really influence this, but hardened_malloc could conceivably help. What would be great is a bench firmware re-flash, but I don't want to do this every single day.
> Is the baseband isolated?
> Yes, the baseband is isolated on all of the officially supported devices. Memory access is partitioned by the IOMMU and limited to internal memory and memory shared by the driver implementations. [...]
I don’t have the source (I’ll have to try find it), but I read that the cell site simulators can work on 4G and earlier but don’t work on 5G. So one thing folks can do is set ur phone to use 5G networks only (unless ur stuck and then u can make it looser but be aware your less protected at that time).
I do this on iOS I’m sure it’s do-able on GrapheneOS and hopefully on Android too.
5G CSS is harder yes, but keep in mind that most 5G is the 5G_NSA variety, and is really just riding on the same cell bands, no mmwave here. You probably notice that your phone often slips out of 5g, or you inhabit different modes here.
Essentially, 5G is sort of a lie. Phones spend a lot of time exchanging information via 4g/lte, and just like 2g/3g and 3g/4g, there are simply downgrades that can be performed in the field, without getting too far into the weeds.
So no, their target is people who marginally care about privacy and security but don't want to use iOS. I don't think they target any particular demographic but I see security engineers and activists among users.
And it's not only security - simple stuff like USB data off unless the phone is unlocked, native call recording, much enhanced user profiles (to separate data mining apps like Uber or Instagram from your financial affairs), etc.
And yes, it's about reducing the attack vector. On most other handsets you'll get most of the fixes 6 months or a year later. At best.
I think the appeal and use case for Graphene and similar OS for most users is the Google/privacy/ownership type argument.
I do understand your point that people at risk of state level attacks might get a false surface level appearance of defence from this. But then anyone who's a target of state level attacks and is making OS decisions based on a surface level understanding of the tech is not going to have a good time anyway.
iirc Graphene is in talks with an unnamed HW vendor to make a grapheneos specific phone. They refer to the vendor as someone who makes phones and you've likely heard of, but haven't given any more info otherwise.
I had to replace my old phone a few months back and I went with a used Pixel 8 pro from Backmarket specifically so I could try GrapheneOS. I'll never go back if I can help it. I love this OS.
GrapheneOS' approach is to focus more on security than privacy, because they believe increased security leads to increased privacy. Unfortunately, that means their hardware requirements pretty much limit the hardware that you can run it on (currently only the Pixel phone range). Worse, it also means they stop supporting a device when it reaches End-Of-Life as software security updates stop for it (see How long can GrapheneOS support my device for? - https://grapheneos.org/faq#device-lifetime ). Sad though - GrapheneOS on Sony Open Devices ( https://developer.sony.com/open-source/aosp-on-xperia-open-d... ) would have been nice.
The whole reason why GrapheneOS is superior to its alternative is because they do all that.
I also with they could support non-Google phones, but that's a problem coming from the manufacturers, not from GrapheneOS.
My understanding is that there are close to half a million GrapheneOS users. And many potential users don't want to buy a Google phone. So it feels like it is starting to become worth considering for manufacturers...
I don't get why Fairphone doesn't look into that. Is it because they are not aware, or is it too hard for them to make hardware that is compliant with what GrapheneOS requires? Hundreds of thousands of devices may not count so much for Samsung, but they must definitely count for Fairphone.
They are dependent on the AOSP releases (which Google develops) and on the manufacturer updates (and because GrapheneOS runs on Pixels, then it goes back to Google again).
I can understand relying on an OEM to provide hardware support for a given model - but I'm finding it hard to understand why they're unable to continue supporting a release just because the upstream removes support for something.
I'm not even really sure what you mean by "manufacturer updates".
The more I hear about this project, the less is sounds like an alternative OS and more it sounds like a thin skin around whatever shit Google throws out, to be honest.
> why they're unable to continue supporting a release just because the upstream removes support for something.
If you have an EOL Pixel and a new major version of Android is released, Google will not port this new version of Android (and therefore AOSP) to it. So GrapheneOS would have to do it. GrapheneOS just say they don't have the resources to do that, so they follow the Google releases. Could you keep an EOL Pixel without receiving updates? Sure. But then it's not supported anymore, it's just outdated, insecure software.
> I'm not even really sure what you mean by "manufacturer updates".
There are the AOSP updates (which bring new features, but importantly in our case bring security fixes) that come from Google, but your phone is more than that. There is a bunch of hardware running in your phone and a bunch of firmwares exposing it. Say your camera, or your wifi module, etc. If there is a security issue in the firmware of the camera, then it won't be fixed in the AOSP codebase. You need the camera manufacturer to fix it and release a firmware, pass it to the phone manufacturer who will then deploy it on your phone.
Google split both of those concepts years ago in order to deploy Android updates faster and make everybody more secure, because manufacturers had a tendency to lag a lot. Some still do but the situation generally improved, I think. Anyway, you need to receive those security updates from your manufacturer because they are independent from Google.
> the less is sounds like an alternative OS and more it sounds like a thin skin around whatever shit Google throws out, to be honest.
If you think that AOSP is shit, then sure. I mean, if you think that the Linux kernel is shit, maybe you don't want to run a Linux distribution.
I personally think that AOSP is pretty great, and vastly superior to Linux on mobile (among other because it has a much better security model). I am not a big fan of Google being root on my phone (with Android and system apps like Play Services), which is something that GrapheneOS fixes (by making Play Services run like any other, unprivileged app). GrapheneOS is also adding privacy features, be it by proxying your location requests (so that they go through the GrapheneOS servers instead of directly to Google) or by adding features like "scopes", where you can choose exactly which contact you share with an app, for instance, or refuse Internet access to an app without breaking it (GrapheneOS will just make the app believe that it has the permission to access the internet but there is just no connection right now). And of course GrapheneOS hardens the system in terms of security (e.g. with a hardened malloc or memory tagging stuff that Apple recently introduced as well).
So yeah, it is relatively thin, because AOSP is a huge codebase. But it doesn't mean that it's worthless: this skin makes it more secure, more private, and for me more enjoyable than Android.
I've been using it for more than 2 years, and I can't think of ever going back to a stock OS. I had to send my phone for a screen repair, in the meantime I picked up my old Samsung, and the sheer amount of apps I didn't want, notifications and dark patterns to tricking me into handing over my data made me anxious. I couldn't finish setting the phone up and drove to my parent's home to pick up their old, remotely nerfed by Google, Pixel 4a so I could install GrapheneOS into it and use it while I waited for my repaired Pixel 8.
~6 months here. In my case, it became almost a full daily driver ( putting corporate spyware on it would kinda defeat the purpose ). It is by no means perfect, but I can recommend it ( and I could not do the same with other phones that should have been better on paper -- linux phones like pinephone or purism ).
Same. Not only has using it been no trouble, but having a barebones core app selection, a few picks from F-Droid, and using the browser for the rest makes my phone feel refreshingly under my control. It lasts for 3-4 days of low usage to boot, when nothing is phoning home constantly.
One of the only big downsides I've noticed with GrapheneOS is that several banking apps don't work with it at all thanks to being tied to Google's verification ecosystem.
Luckily I have hardware 2FA keys from my bank so I can authenticate using that. It also slightly decreases the suck-factor from whenever the phone decides to fly off down a drain. This may not be the case for you, so do your research on what you need for daily living.
I contacted my bank, insisting that GrapheneOS is one of the most secure OS on the market and therefore should be supported if they actually care about users' security (it's actually far more secure than all the old, far less secure but Google-approved devices out there). They acknowledged an fixed their app, one of the most popular in France.
Still missing Android Pay but that's due to Android Pay being closed. I wish banks would do something and support NFC payment systems that don't require the device to be controlled by Google (how can we be okay with this?!)
The point of NFC-on-a-phone is that you don't need the damn banking apps and internet and retailer support for all that to validate a simple transaction. My credit card has NFC, no internet and no app, and it's universal.
I can't say about "convenient" because I don't use it, but I have been using QR codes for years and I haven't had a single issue. I don't know anyone who has.
It's regularly unreliable here, because it's reliant on a bank app which in turn is reliant on an internet connection, and banks here are kind of shit.
It's pretty common here that people will be told they need to turn off an otherwise working Wifi connection when facing problems because bank apps will often just not work properly on wifi.
But as I said, even without that, the convenience level is ridiculously different. It's arguably quicker to open your wallet and use a debit card with an NFC chip than it is to use QR codes, before we even talk about the convenience of watch/phone payments using NFC.
> It's regularly unreliable here, because it's reliant on a bank app which in turn is reliant on an internet connection
Got it, that's a fair point!
> But as I said, even without that, the convenience level is ridiculously different. It's arguably quicker to open your wallet and use a debit card with an NFC chip than it is to use QR codes
This part sounds like those people who use a different unit system than I do and explain to me how my unit system is objectively more inconvenient than theirs. To which I answer: "I think I know better than you what is more convenient for me, given that I use it everyday" :-).
I use QR codes instead of opening my wallet, which kind of hints towards the former being more convenient than the latter for me. And for the millions of people who also do that.
Most anti-google move: buy a second hand pixel, they receive no revenue on the device which is (assumed) already highly subsidized by google so that they can profit off users' data, then you use their subsidized hardware without running their spyware OS. Google only loses money in this scenario, it is a great protest.
I see it as a necessity, because the Google phone is the only one worth it if you care about security.
The problem is not GrapheneOS, but rather that phone manufacturers other than Google don't care. Now if there were millions of GrapheneOS users, it would start becoming interesting for other phone manufacturers to care.
My point being that I buy Pixel in order to give more weight to GrapheneOS, in the hope that other manufacturers will eventually realise that.
Yup, also Google Pay doesn't work, though there are other providers which work fine (Curve Pay I think works in all of EU), but it just made me carry my wallet everywhere and I understood I don't mind that at all.
No, because most banking apps call upon the Google Play Integrity API, which GrapheneOS doesn't (or can't?) use. There's a decent list kicking around of which ones work (Monzo, for instance).
Not really. On GrapheneOS, the Play Services/Play Store run as sandboxed apps, i.e. they are not system apps like on Android. They just run like a normal, unprivileged app. That's a lot better than on Android.
> I'd rather break free from Google and Apple, not just (stock) Android and iOS
If you want to break free, you don't have to install the Play Services / Play Store on GrapheneOS, just like you don't have to install microG on LineageOS. There is a misconception that microG is better than sandboxed Play, but I disagree. With microG, your apps still connect to the Google servers, so you're not "breaking free".
I have been using /e/OS for 5 years, and also GOS. My take is:
- If your phone is supported by GOS, you should go for GOS.
- If your phone is not supported by GOS, you should look carefully and compare between /e/OS and Stock Android.
I had a Fairphone 3, and after 5 years, /e/OS was outdated by 4 years w.r.t. the manufacturer updates. In other words, Stock Android coming from Fairphone was more secure than /e/OS on that Fairphone.
In my experience, /e/OS has a tendency to claim that they support everything, but they just can't, there is too much. And then they complain when GrapheneOS criticises the fact that some /e/OS users believe their phone is well supported but actually isn't. And GrapheneOS is not wrong: I realised I was in that case after 4 years with /e/OS.
> I had a Fairphone 3, and after 5 years, /e/OS was outdated by 4 years w.r.t. the manufacturer updates
Mine is running /e/ and reporting Android 13, which appears to be the last one Fairphone support. /e/ said it was too difficult to support 14 with the kernel involved. It's had continual security updates apart from the Android version.
Edit: Murena make it clear which phones are officially supported and which have "community" support.
In regular use, main difference will be that /e/OS comes with access to the alternative cloud service that project provides. It uses the default FOSS solution microG for google api compatibility, unlike GrapheneOS with their sandbox approach. /e/OS sets on AppLounge to install and upgrade both play store or F-Droid apps. Graphene has a small curated app repo instead.
I'd never use GrapheneOS since I don't trust the project. /e/OS is also not my favorite since it feels like it is developing slowly, having had issues with outdated software versions - though it does work well in practice. Have a look at iode for an alternative.
That's not just a claim, this is an objective fact. GrapheneOS has a excellent track record when it comes to security, they have made several patches that got upstreamed to Android, etc.
> I'd never use GrapheneOS since I don't trust the project
Fair enough, you choose what you trust.
But personally, I have never seen a technical claim from GrapheneOS that was wrong or misleading. But I have seen many claims from /e/OS that were technically wrong or misleading. So I trust GrapheneOS more.
Then there is the drama, and all sides annoy me when they behave like this. But I have seen drama coming from all sides.
I have never seen drama from /e/ or any other project GrapheneOS attacks, like Calyx. Please link me to it - I asked this several times, people never can follow up. So far?
> Please link me to it - I asked this several times, people never can follow up. So far?
Sorry, I won't spend 30 minutes digging to find that :-). I follow /e/OS, GrapheneOS and (followed) Calyx. I have seen messages from all of those either on forums, Mastodon, etc.
Also, whenever GrapheneOS makes a technical point (which is often a blunt "GrapheneOS is superior because [...] does it wrong"), many users of those projects answer aggressively (and of course many GrapheneOS participate as well).
And on top of that, a lot of messages criticising some GOS people or the entire project and calling them "toxic" whenever GrapheneOS is mentioned.
I have no skin in this game, so it doesn't touch me. But I could understand that the GOS people feel "harassed" by this. If everywhere I went people said "have you seen this guy? I hear he's toxic", I would consider it harassment, I think?
Sorry, but then I take this as the usual - GOS is attacking other projects, that I can easily see in all their socials, and the other projects have done nothing wrong. GOS always claims that the other projects attack them since years, and never shows any proof. And indeed, I still never have seen any attack against GOS. Seems like this won't change today.
You or other readers can check https://github.com/mozilla/ichnaea/issues/2065 for a public display on how GOS attacks work when they are mixed into technical debates, how they destroy any chance of cooperation.
Sure, you're free to do what you want. Just sharing my opinion given that I follow those projects from the outside.
> You or other readers can check
I guess what I am trying to say is that it takes multiple sides to argue.
For what it's worth, your link shows the founder of /e/OS engaging there. I have seen both technically wrong and misleading claims from the founder of /e/OS on Mastodon, then GrapheneOS explaining why they thought it was wrong on their forum, and then the founder of /e/OS calling them toxic and complaining about those attacks. And then /e/OS users would join the party and start attacking GrapheneOS, fully trusting those claims from the /e/OS founder. I can't really say that he didn't have any responsibility in the drama under those conditions...
Again, GrapheneOS tend to be blunt, but it doesn't make it technically wrong. And when the message is "it is unacceptable to us in terms of security", then it will be blunt anyway. I realised after years of using a phone I bought to Murena that my system (that they installed and sold to me) was entirely breaking the AOSP security model: it was signed with the Google testing keys and the bootloader was unlocked (and just couldn't be relocked, and anyway it wouldn't matter because of those keys that are not meant for production).
In other words, I bought a product to Murena that was unacceptable to me in terms of security, but genuinely thought it was better than Stock Android because of Murena / /e/OS marketing. I genuinely feel either they tricked me, or they didn't know it themselves. I have personally seen multiple /e/OS phones in a state where they were objectively less secure than Stock Android. I get that they don't like it when GrapheneOS says it, but that is not wrong.
I think it's more of a marketing claim from less secure systems that "privacy is not security, and GrapheneOS focuses on security while we focus on privacy".
GrapheneOS does care about both, quite obviously. And GrapheneOS tends to say that if your security is bad, then it is affecting your privacy too. Whereas others say "sure, we break the Android security model by unlocking the bootloader and signing our system with the Google test keys, but your apps will contact Google through microG instead of the Play Services, so it's more private". Which is worth what it is worth...
This is only my opinion, but GrapheneOS's approach to privacy seems obtuse to me. They will claim that an unlocked bootloader is a risk, but then turn around and recommend you install proprietary apps GApps in their sandbox. The sandbox doesn't matter if all the private data is in the same sandbox!
And sandboxed Google Play services serve both goals -- it runs the service as a regular android service, not an exceptional one that has a bunch of extra permissions. So you can allow/restrict it as you seem fit, while not "getting behind" on features/apps that mandate it.
I disagree, privacy is an essential part of security, if there's no privacy, then there's no security.
That's also why I don't keep anything important on my phone as I don't trust what's going on there despite having all the secure features that you would want.
Other way around, actually. It's possible to make concessions to privacy, like providing crash reports, or running applications in sandboxes which limits what they can harvest, while keeping the platform secure.
Any privacy you have on a system is reliant on no one tampering with that system and on software behaving itself. Without security, you can't trust the system to implement any privacy.
I also disagree with that, I trust my Linux distribution to behave well much more than I trust any Android platform and it doesn't even have much app sandboxing at all.
You can't fix a lack of trust like you have in Android with technical solutions. The flaw in Android is fundamentally a social problem.
That's the difference between trusted computing (Linux distribution) and untrusted computing (Android).
If you want something backed by objective data, my phone has an advertising ID built in the OS and my laptop doesn't. My phone had 100s of privacy scandals and my laptop doesn't have one.
I do applaud GrapheneOS don't get me wrong but I have a feeling that they are fighting a losing battle.
GOS creates a complete bunker of a phone that can provide defense against pretty much all but the most dedicated state level actors. If you're worried that someone would steal your phone specifically to target you, Graphene will protect against that. Securitywise it's hard to argue against them, although GOS tends to sacrifice usability in favor of security, which leads to odd decisions. Their device depreciation timeline is also pretty aggressive and really just matches that of the Pixel. (You're also buying the Google phone... to not want Google in your life; this bizarre paradox will always be strange). It's not exactly a recommendation for long-term support. Worth noting however is that usage of GOS is also seen as a signal in and of itself for the authorities that you may have something unsavory to hide, so using it stands out in that regard; some law enforcement officers (I think it was in Spain?) have said that the OS is popular with organized crime. GOS obviously denies the connection and they're probably honest in that the OS isn't deliberately designed for criminals, but it's worth noting at the very least. (Basically GOS is the paradox where someone trying their hardest to be anonymous ends up standing out way too much from the crowd and drawing attention to themselves.)
/e/OS (and similar "non-LineageOS" ROMs really) instead focus more on de-Googling. They're still generally security focused, but the priority is less "someone's after you" and more "corporate surveillance is kinda scary innit". The aim is less to avoid someone actively trying to drain your phone of data and more to prevent your phone from passively sending everything it can possibly find to the Big G's ad machine (as well as whatever other trackers get snuck into apps.) Because of this, they usually have better depreciation timelines and support a lot more devices compared to GOS who only support the Pixel line (which is an increasingly awful set of phones truth be told); their scope is much smaller.
Finally, it's worth noting that the GOS community is absurdly toxic to anyone doing anything privacy-related that isn't under the banner of GOS. It's extremely maximalist, tends to get very upset at other projects whenever they get attention (see sibling reply to this, where they pretty much melted down because an outlet dared to recommend a Fair phone+/e/OS) and the projects official channels have generally encouraged this sort of behavior. It doesn't really damage the software itself, but it's worth considering.
I have been a user of /e/OS for 5 years, and also of GOS and would like to share my opinion on this:
> it's worth noting that the GOS community is absurdly toxic to anyone doing anything privacy-related that isn't under the banner of GOS
What I have seen (and I am not involved in any of those projects) is that GOS does care a lot about security, has a higher quality in that regard than anything else, and tends to be blunt about "inferior" projects communicating about security.
Not that they couldn't improve their communication style, but usually when they call out technical limitations of other projects (e.g. /e/OS), they are right. And I mean the technical arguments. Then I have seen a bunch of drama, but to be fair I have seen those other communities show toxic behaviour towards GOS just as much as the opposite.
It feels like it is GOS vs "the others", because the others don't criticise each other, and GOS bluntly criticises when they see claims they find are wrong (I have seen claims by /e/OS going from misleading to downright wrong).
On my particular phone, after 5 years with /e/OS, the Fairphone updates were outdated by 4 years. In terms of security I would have been better with the Stock Android. It depends on the phone of course, because /e/OS tends to claim that they support everything and they just can't. Even on a phone that /e/OS supports well, GrapheneOS is superior, period.
But I agree, I could do without all the drama. I guess my point is that it goes both ways.
> /e/OS/ was bad with updates for a long time (I had to switch 2022).
In my case, it was a few months ago, so end of 2025.
I think it's just that they can't possibly support thousands of Android devices. I just don't like that they are not being very clear about it. You would think that buying a phone through Murena would guarantee some kind of support, but it actually doesn't.
The main difference is that GrapheneOS prioritizes security hardening first and foremost (above usability or compatibility). /e/OS focuses on privacy (i.e. reducing data leakage to adtech) and usability over security.
To put it concretely, GrapheneOS recommends running all the proprietary Google apps in a locked "sandbox" so they can't read data on the phone outside the sandbox -- but obviously Google still gets to see everything you do in their apps. /e/OS tries to provide [largely but not entirely FLOSS] alternatives (e.g. their own Maps app, their own email, their own calendar) that make your phone usable out of the box without Google software.
How are the cameras on the latest devices running GrapheneOS? My last Android experience was the Oneplus One and the experience left me with the feeling that cameras are just too proprietary to work well once you go tinkering with custom ROMs and camera apps.
I'm not a photographer or anything, I just want to quickly point and shoot and get on with whatever I'm doing without thinking too hard.
We need Linux OSes and phones to catch up to really break free from this duopoly. Only when there is enough traction, essential infrastructure like banks will start supporting Oses like that. It's a chicken and egg kind of problem.
There's a new Jolla Phone in pre-marketing phase right now (almost 9000 phones have been pre-ordered so far). First device deliveries are scheduled for this summer and this should easily be the new benchmark for officially supported SailfishOS devices.
The situation with Sony Xperia devices is not great, the best experience is still on the X10III (from 2021 I think) and there are significant issues with the support of 10 IV and V generation devices (a free beta release is available for those as well).
It seems that recently there has been quite a lot of buzz in the Sailfish community compared to the past few years. In the public repos there are some interesting contributions like xdg-shell support for Lipstick, which looks set to enable compiling many previously unavailable Linux apps natively if that will actually be integrated in an upcoming OS version.
I think that the main problem is that android has a lot of weird modifications that are not consistent with the rest of linux distros. The user data is suddenly in /data instead of /home, theres no package manager, no systemd (for better or worse), and there's hella lotta security gotchas, for example call recording is impossible without root as far as I know. I'm not saying that Android is not hackable, but it's a different type of hackability than desktop linux, you have to learn it all over again and in my opinion it's much harder to master than desktop linux.
I've been on ubports for 3 years and while it also has some weird caveats like read only rootfs, no working package manager (due to read-only fs. however ubports has pretty cool support for lxc containers where you can use apt). Due to chronic lack of time I haven't been able to sit down on my phone to play with it a bit (for example id like to install waydroid), but it seems a lot easier than android. For example, while there isn't an app for call recording, some guy worked around it by writing a systemd user service as a workaround[1]. This is exactly the type of thing I'm thinking about when talking "linux phone".
For me as a linux user, the difference if ubports was a human, I'd think that perhaps they were sick, whereas if android was a human, i'd shoot them in the face :)
Yeah, just need to decide where to start the fork. The larger problem is radio firmware. FCC regs were the initial excuse, for wifi and Bluetooth too, but we need to open up the source for all of these and allocate money for enforcement if we are truly worried people are going to start adding wifi channels etc. Open firmware phone radios would let you do things like truly turning off the radio when wifi was present, no gps ping even.
You’re not wrong. The thing that bothers me is that AOSP is being developed behind close doors and controlled by a single company which wields way too much power and control over our daily lives, and which has a track record of abusing that power.
As long as it is based on AOSP, it is at the mercy of Google to release source code and updates. Given recent trends, I wouldn't be surprised if Google stops shipping Android source completely.
Break free from Google by paying money to Google for a Pixel phone? Even with a used Pixel, you're helping prop up their used market value which helps Google
It's not breaking free from Google, but pretending it does not affect you. You are still at mercy of app developers and Google which may introduce some changes that will affect you. Additionally you never know what will work or stop working.
I mean you're not degoogling yourself if you put all your transactions through a google server. Cash if possible, card if not.
(Also it is possible to do these things if you root your phone, but caries its own risks and I wouldn't recommend. Ending your dependency on third party processors is probably the best outcome)
It's weird that here on HN some people are trying to break free from Google and Apple and on the other side some people are married to Gemini, and both look like to be the majority at times.
What about device attestation? Will you be able to run banking apps and Netflix et. al.?
For me the biggest concern is that while you may be able to use and run your own device, you will be locked out of most propietary services. Much like how more and more websites simply don't work with Firefox anymore.
I only use Firefox. It has been years since I ran into a chrome only website. Though recently I ran into an edge only websit on my corporate network, not even sure how that happens.
is it worth to buy google pixel just for installing grapheneos? in my country, it is kinda pricey and of course it cannot install bank apps because almost all of them are must non root phone.
Break free from Google by buying their hardware and be dependant on them to actively support the device. Things are absurd at this stage. I guess there is different motivations behind mobile OSes.
Many are complaining about banking app compatability, but I've never felt compelled to use anything other than my browser for banking. What's the big deal with the banking apps?
Am missing out on some huge advantage here?
People seem to fondly remember the Microsoft phones. If they made them now though, I can't really imagine what sort of Copilot-filled abomination they would be.
Break free from Android... by installing Android? I'm not sure it's really breaking free when the first task to do is intall Google Play Services so your banking app works.
AOSP is Android without the Google proprietary stuff (and without the manufacturer proprietary stuff, e.g. Samsung's). If you install bare AOSP, it will look like the Android on a Pixel phone, but the biggest difference you will see is that it won't have the Play Services or some Google apps.
If you want to be a certified Android system (like all Android manufacturers do), you have to port AOSP to your hardware, install the Play Services as a system app (giving Google root access), install the system apps you want (e.g. Samsung have their own UI, maybe their own camera, their own store that they want to be installed as system apps), pass some conformity tests by Google (Google wants to ensure that it's good enough to be called "Android") and pay a ton of money to Google for the licence.
But as an individual, you can just download the AOSP sources, build them and install them on your phone. It's AOSP, but not Android.
GrapheneOS is based on AOSP. /e/OS is based on LineageOS which is based on AOSP. Those are not Android systems, they are AOSP-based systems. In a way like Linux Mint is based on Ubuntu which is based on Debian. Those are different layers. If you hate Canonical, it doesn't mean that you have to hate Debian, even though Canonical does contribute to software that runs in Debian (like the Linux kernel). The comparison is worth what it's worth, but I hope you get my point :-).
I would put the focus on having capable web-banking. I never install the banking app on my phone.
I must also be getting old, because I don't get the big fuss about NFC payments. Firstly, I'd never use them if they go through Google/Apple. But even when/if they don't, it's not a big deal to use a card, isn't it (if you hate cash)?
> But even when/if they don't, it's not a big deal to use a card, isn't it (if you hate cash)?
Card is usually linked to the US. Some people would like to not depend on that. But the rational solution IMO is for the banking system to use QR codes instead of NFC. Some countries do that and it just works.
> Card is usually linked to the US. Some people would like to not depend on that.
You have a point, and even though it looks like it will be a very corporate-driven system, and possibly dependent on Google or Apple, there seems to be an EU payment system on the making (if it ends up depending on Google or Apple, that will be the irony of leaving VISA/Mastercard to fall in the fangs of Google / Apple, but... oh well, one step at a time).
I think the name is Wero, it was on HN a few days ago.
The new payment networks are not an independent app. They are a protocol your banking app has to implement, so unless your bank supports non-Google phones you are out of luck (not my case, thankfully).
They should get the same level of financing (donations) as Tor project at least. Some big organization like Open Technology Fund or NLnet should give them yearly grants.
It's very annoying that they restrict themselves to Pixels. I get they can't guarantee all the security features they want on other phones, but even a subset of those security features and the other advantages like the lack of cruft would make it very attractive to be able to run on other phones.
>Because google actually cares about hardware and software security.
That statement might not have aged so well, especially consindering googles attempt to lock out apps from their devices, If the developers do not comply with being oficially registered.
There is a difference between security and privacy or freedom of use. Locking down the device to only allow a subset of apps that Google has some control over (by requiring developers to register) is a measure that can increase security, even though it obviously takes some control away from the end-user.
The fact that the play store is not exactly known for exceptionally high standards w.r.t. malware, or that there are lots of valid concerns that come along with a company controlling who is allowed to supply apps for the device is a different topic.
I believe (as it's open source) there is nothing impeding anybody else to compile grapheneOS in a samsung S10, which would not be as secure, but should still work as any lineage
Because phones have device-specific code. Effectively, each single model is running its own fork of Android. Naturally, Google has no incentive to change this - it makes it difficult to update (planned obsolescence) and install other software (like GrapheneOS).
I can't take this seriously when their mission statement is to "break free from Google and Apple" and their entire output is a fork of a Google repo.
If you're based on AOSP, the project is still 100% reliant on Google!
It seems extremely cynical to me to depend on the work of a thousand-man team to build your OS, then patch out a couple of lines and claim you've broken free from them. Without Google, none of this project could exist.
For some (and other not-so) obvious reasons I switched to Graphene a few weeks ago. For years I've been pushing towards de-cloudifying my digital life and there were several reasons for it: On one hand it was the constant content subscription which gave me 0 guarantees that what I am interested in will still be available the next morning, even though I've paid for it, and the other was, you guessed it, the idiotic LLMs everywhere and subsequently the complete annihilation of security practices by giving a probabilistic model unrestricted access to all of your data.
First things, first, kudos to the GrapheneOS team for making it this easy to install and the surprisingly rapid support for new devices. Sure, there are features which I otherwise liked in the stock android that came with Pixel phones(swipe typing is something I very much enjoyed) but all in all, I can't say I miss much from it otherwise. I've slimmed down my list of apps to basic functionalities backed by self-hosted services (nextcloud, immich, jellifin, etc. along with a VPN I maintain myself) and I honestly don't miss much from the stock Android.
I want to point out that for a very long time I worked for a company that developed games for mobile devices and while the data we collected was mostly anonymous(*unless you logged in with facebook and by implications we had your facebook id) and it was never even utilized all that much beyond bad attempts at maximizing sales(not effectively anyway cause the people in charge were as incompetent as they could get), I can say that we collected ungodly amounts of data: most of the cloud bills were storage for that specific reason. While we did not have bad intentions and had to operate under strict GDPR regulations, this was a large company that was constantly monitored. Small companies can fly under the radar and get away with not abiding by the rules and laws and commonly they are not even aware what the repercussions could be. Similarly, the US and Asia-based giants can simply shrug it off and toss a few billions in fines. Make no mistake, no company is looking for your best interest and with that in mind, I couldn't recommend GrapheneOS (and self-hosting everything) enough, assuming you know what you are doing.
GrapheneOS is like using Firefox. Works on most sites, but those few things just don’t. Maybe it’s a dealbreaker for some. And they’re dependent on Google.
Full control over app permissions
GrapheneOS allows for full control over what permissions each application can have.
For example, in conventional Android forks, every application by default has granted
Network (internet access) and Sensors [...] permissions.
Has anyone ever wondered if all apps on a phone need Internet access?
Well, Apple made privacy a major selling point, so I'm sure you can do this on iOS, too. /s
I commented elsewhere but GrapheneOS on Pixels actively siphon resources from Google and is arguably a good protest against google.
They subsidize Pixel hardware (to incentivize users to adopt their spyware OS), you (buying used obviously) take their subsidized hardware and do not repay them by using their spyware, replacing it with Graphene. Only google loses. Their hardware is technically very good otherwise (in fact no other hardware fits the strict graphene security requirements).
It's mind boggingly stupid that they lock down apps like this, when you can just open the thing in a website anyway. I can use my bank on some linux distro, crazy that they trust me since it is not Windows - the truly secure OS!
Knew about those things before I started, so all in all I'm pretty happy. I'd recommend NOT using different users for different things (I started with banking etc in one profile, that ended up being a huge PITA and according to their docs it is mostly security theater anyway). Happy tinkering!
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