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He was carrying all of the evidence with him, including the fake ID he used at the hostel, the gun & suppressor, mask, and even a handwritten manifesto that points to his motivation. It seems he wanted to be found.


> It seems he wanted to be found.

I talked to someone personally who at some point had committed a series of crimes, and at some point they started doing things that were more and more likely to get them caught; they told me they thought to themselves, "What am I doing?" But they didn't stop, and eventually got caught.

In a different story, a few years ago I dropped my wallet on the sidewalk outside my house, and someone picked it up and tried to use one of the credit cards in it. Then they got in a fight which got them arrested; and the police found my wallet (with my ID and everything) in their possession. Why get in a fight that's going to get you arrested just at the moment when you have stolen property in your pocket?

My take is this: We present to others, and even ourselves, the illusion that there's just one unified "self"; but really inside there are a number of independent motivations within us. In both cases above, I think there was a part of those people who felt guilty and actually did want to be caught and punished.

It's possible there was something similar going on with the guy who shot the CEO: one part of him had managed to plan everything perfectly so that he could get away; but there was a saboteur. It couldn't ahead of time prevent him from doing the shooting, but it could afterwards prevent him from disposing of the evidence and ensure that he got caught.


> My take is this: We present to others, and even ourselves, the illusion that there's just one unified "self"; but really inside there are a number of independent motivations within us. In both cases above, I think there was a part of those people who felt guilty and actually did want to be caught and punished.

I have a different take. Assuming his crime is driven by his beliefs/mission, not being found will not further it. Logically you may argue that it would afford him more chances to carry on but given that we assume him to be driven by strong and passionate belief, he would want to be clearly and explicitly recognized for those beliefs and would want those thoughts to take center stage of public opinion. Carrying evidence also is his way of broadcasting the signal that he doesn't care about getting caught since he did the right thing and has nothing to be ashamed of.


> I have a different take. Assuming his crime is driven by his beliefs/mission, not being found will not further it.

I'm not so sure in this case. It would have been hard for the perpetrator to predict beforehand, but there was so little public sympathy for the victim, and there are lot of people who said they would not help the police catch him. Him getting away would have shown that insurance companies are so terrible and so hated that the public is OK with the murder of those responsible (because if they weren't, they'd help the police and he'd be caught).

Escape would have sent a much stronger message than whatever he could hope to accomplish by grandstanding in a courtroom.


> Him getting away would have shown that insurance companies are so terrible and so hated that the public is OK with the murder of those responsible

That is already proven to a large extent. Sure police are doing their job because of the pressure they have and someone working at McDonald's wants to collect tens of thousands of dollars, but it is pretty clear that he has significant public support based on the outpouring of support in the recent days.

> Escape would have sent a much stronger message

No, escape would have just shown that he is good at hiding. Effectively giving himself up gave an even bigger stage for him to place his point. And he got a lot more coverage by delaying that instead of immediate surrender.

> than whatever he could hope to accomplish by grandstanding in a courtroom.

What is grandstanding for you could be advocacy for another. Only time can tell whether it accomplishes anything.


There's a decent book written about exactly this, Crime and Punishment, by one of those Russians. Pretty hilarious read too.


I immediately thought of this when I read the parent comment.


one of those Russians... lol

Fyodor Dostoyevsky


"Wait, this doesn't make sense", believe it or not, is not the default state of humanity, nor is it even the majority of our thoughts.

I know I am not doing my body and health a favor. There's a tool called journaling, but I am not even using it right now. It's a very useful tool to get your mind into thinking "wait, this doesn't make sense", or "why am I behaving this way?"

Everyday, I say to myself that I am speeding up my decline in health, and yet nothing changes(because I don't journal).


> I think there was a part of those people who felt guilty and actually did want to be caught and punished.

Eric Berne in one of the pop psy books makes a claim which to me rings true -- that the real criminals don't get caught, the ones that get caught are the ones that want to play hide & seek as a trauma response from childhood -- there's a very deep drive to be sought after and found and those people, because of absent parents and lack of attention didn't get to play it out, so they really do want to be discovered in their sub-conscious mind.


There is a hypothesis/philosophy called Society of Mind [1] which posits that our minds are a collection of individual 'agents' that each have their own motivations, sometimes cooperating and sometimes competing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Mind


Welcome to Jungian Psychology and the wonderful world of enantidromia. As humans are General Intelligences, we're capable of entertaining contradictory courses of action/thinking at the same time. At some point our conscious faculties "meet" our unconscious faculties, and the period of time when the two start to integrate into a whole individual is a bit of a wild ride that practically no modern practitioner of psychology I've met seems to even be aware of anymore, and can absolutely go awry.


Shout out to the Red Book.


Exactly my thoughts as well. Every piece of evidence law enforcement has was basically intentionally provided by him. If he just stuffed his trash in one of his 7 pockets, or wore a pair of sunglasses, or didn't actually stare straight at the camera in the taxi like he was getting his school picture taken? I mean pretty much the only thing he failed to do was leave his business card at the crime scene.


It would be interesting to see if he's banking on jury nullification being within the Overton window...


Most people don't even know what jury nullification is, and even fewer realize it is in fact legal. I'd be surprised if he was banking on that.


I don't think he was banking on that, but I thought it interesting that posts about jury nullification were all over the front page on Reddit today, e.g. https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1haimhk/til_... and https://old.reddit.com/r/WhitePeopleTwitter/comments/1haejf4...


maybe the prosecutor will refuse anyone who knows what jury nullification is


> maybe the prosecutor will refuse anyone who knows what jury nullification is

It’s typically asked about. If you know about it and lie, that’s perjury.


It's sometimes asked about whether you'd follow the evidence - people aren't excluded (at least by the judge) for just knowing what the concept is.

As for "lying" here, it's an interesting metaphysical question. Because you're not lying (or telling the truth) about some observable event, it's simply your own state of mind. If somebody asks "Why did you vote not guilty", you simply say "I didn't believe the evidence was convincing". There is literally no way for anyone else to say otherwise.


> If somebody asks "Why did you vote not guilty", you simply say "I didn't believe the evidence was convincing". There is literally no way for anyone else to say otherwise

Nullification needs to be unanimous. You'd get in trouble when pitching nullification to your fellow jurors. (Or at the very least, have a mistrial declared.)

> people aren't excluded (at least by the judge) for just knowing what the concept is

If you want a surefire way to get off a jury, mention nullification in voir dire. (Hell, just ask innocently about it.)


> Nullification needs to be unanimous.

Nullification absolutely does not need to be unanimous, and it rarely is. All it takes is one juror force a mistrial (and another if it is retried, etc.) Sure, the prosecutor would likely retry, but again, it just takes one juror out of twelve to cause a mistrial, and the vast majority of prosecutors don't prosecute indefinitely.

> If you want a surefire way to get off a jury, mention nullification in voir dire.

No shit, so don't mention it.


> it just takes one juror out of twelve to cause a mistrial

...this isn't nullification. A major point of nullification is a not-guilty verdict by a jury is final. No retrial. No appeal.

> the vast majority of prosecutors don't prosecute indefinitely

You think this case wouldn't be re-tried?


of course the case would be retried, but if after the first mistrial there is a widespread partying in the streets, and then the second mistrial the same, and then the third trial starts there is rioting, the way the system currently works they might decide not to try a fourth trial. Of course I don't know if the U.S is there yet.


> I don't know if the U.S is there yet

I do. The educated, well-to-do, urban bubble has convinced itself—again—that this guy is universally adored. Because we’re mistaking—again—the difference between a symbol and the object, a mistake amplified by those who get their world view primarily from Twitter, Reddit, et cetera.


Usually it's phrased differently but it's on the form.


One weird trick to avoid jury duty for the rest of your life?


that and share the statistics on eye witness testimony reliability.


And if that doesn't come up, mention that your favorite movie is My Cousin Vinny.


In the one case I sat on the jury for the judge told us that we had to follow their directions exactly as to how to interpret the law when making a sentence. We were informed we not allowed to choose a lighter charge (options were misdemeanor assault, assault and aggravated assault).

Jury nullification wouldn't have mattered and it was settled in an hour, but it was interesting. But I had been warned by multiple lawyer friends this might happen.

Even more wasteful as this was the 3rd strike so the difference between assault and aggravated was 25 or 26 years, aka no difference. And the defendant had pleaded down already. Finally it was obvious it wasn't aggravated for several reasons and the prosecution was just fishing for convictions. Basically took 2 extra days of everyone's time fishing for sentence elevations.


> Jury nullification wouldn't have mattered

Why is that? Was it just the sentencing phase?


The jury ended up giving them assault, not aggrivated. Aggrivated required pre-mediatation. But the guy was drunk and did something dumb and quick. It wasn't pre-meditated. The judge was essentially telling us it had to be aggrivated, but also quoted the law. The jury voted for non-aggrivated. But it was 3 strikes so he got the same sentence (the full boat) no matter if he was aggrivated or non-aggrivated.

how do I know this? the defense attorney and the prosecutor both went to bars in my neighborhood. I got both of them drinks and asked them for the back story on the case.



> Most people don't even know what jury nullification is, and even fewer realize it is in fact legal. I'd be surprised if he was banking on that.

Also, IIRC, the court system is pretty against it. The judge won't instruct the jury on it and I very much doubt he'd let the defense attorney bring it up to the jury either.


Courts can be against it all they want, it is still legal and well within a juror's rights. I'd never expect a judge or attorney to raise it as an option, but at the end of the day it is.

Jury selection throws a wrench in the system, lawyers have a chance to ask questions under oath and get rid of jurors for most any reason. As i understand it, its pretty common for them to try to ferret out anyone that may go the nullification route.


Do you have a cite for it being legal for jurors to ignore jury instructions and orders from the Court?

Is it also legal for jurors to ignore orders not to discuss the case, post about deliberations on Facebook, or decide the case based on race?


I don't unfortunately, that would be buried somewhere in federal codes.

Orders and instructions are different though. An official order by a judge may fall under contempt of court if you don't comply. Instructions are more procedural and about a judge running the process of the trial. For deliberation, that also generally means instructions that really just help guide a jury of people who may not have done it before and aren't sure of the process or general expectations.


My question was rhetorical. Instructions ARE an order. Willful failure to comply is contempt.

The issue is that proving why a juror voted a certain way is kind of tough. The beautiful part is that this is a feature, not a bug.


A juror can't be punished for their decision, ever. It doesn't matter whether a juror keeps their reasoning a secret or not.

Its interesting you meant that rhetorically, your premise is wrong in my opinion. If you want to distinguish between an instruction and an order I'd think it has to be based on how it can be enforced. An instruction can't be enforced by a judge, for example they can instruct you to only consider what was presented but they can't punish you if you disobey that.


Perhaps the jurisdiction where you practice is different than the ones I do? In federal court, and the states I'm familiar with, the judge certainly can punish you for disobeying instructions. You take an oath, and the judge orders you, to follow the instructions.


In the situation of jury nullification, though, the judge would have to be punishing a juror for the verdict they supported. That isn't legal at least in the US, a juror can't be instructed to give a certain verdict or punished based on their decision.

Judges will be careful not to directly give instructions against nullification for precisely that reason. They may very well imply that you shouldn't go off the rails of evidence provided or laws and precedent as described, but that's as far as a judge can go with instructions against nullification.


The judge, prosecution and defense get to vet each juror by asking them about their beliefs and biases. They can reject jurors if they believe the juror is unable to hear a case without being impartial. Jurors (often) won't be told the details of the case they'll be hearing while they're being vetted, only the basic details (e.g. defendant is a white male accused of murdering another white male).

In extremely high profile cases like the ones featuring Donald Trump, courts focus on selecting jurors who can remain fair and impartial despite their knowledge of the case or their own personal opinions. They'll go through extensive vetting which can include written questionnaires, interviews, oral questioning about their media consumption, their political beliefs and potential biases, and so on.


They don't actually verify any of this and you can just lie. One of the chauvin jurors lied about being an activist.


That sounds more like a failure of the prosecution in the Chauvin trial, rather than an assumption we can make about all trials.


Failure of the prosecution? No, they have qualified immunity.


It’s not. American judges, generally speaking, hate jury nullification with the strength of a thousand suns. They are petty little tyrants.


Judges generally hate it but there's also nothing they can do about it if it happens.

That said its a very far leap to assume (either as the suspect or as a third party) that because this suspect has a lot of online sympathy that that will translate to a jury both willing and knowledgeable enough to nullify. Certainly wouldn't bet my life or freedom on that myself.

Personally I lean toward doubting that getting caught was part of some master plan. People have this binary view of things where he's either got to be a criminal mastermind who thought of everything or a complete fool, and the reality is probably that he's a better than average premeditated murderer (given all of what is stacked against him) who still got caught due to a combination of bad luck and being a little bit careless. Considering how extensive the current surveillance state is he got closer to getting away with it than the vast majority of people would have, but also combined that with some stupid but perfectly naturally human oversights.


Or maybe he’s just not that smart… it’s pretty much expected some number will lose their marbles and become semi-deranged or fully deranged every year.

I’d guess at least 1 in ten thousand per annum. Which would equate to hundreds of newly deranged developers per year in the US.


The Identity Killer strikes again

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CiVFn1vEIiM


But the calling card needs to be left the previous day.


Version 2.0 of this crime will feature the shooter having the forethought to have put a bitcoin wallet address on the front of his mask as he traipsed around in front of the cameras.

And boy howdy, the sparks will fly then


As bad ideas go, this has to be one of the best.


Before releasing the pictures authorities would redact the address.


I don't think they'd know what it was.


But the internet.


My lack of socialization really shows when I first thought this to be a reference to the Persona video game.


They'll never see it coming!


I guess the next one can learn from this one and they will iteratively get better at not getting caught.


In the movie "Wag the Dog", Dustin Hoffman plays a Hollywood producer who is hired by the President to create a fake war to take attention away from another scandal. Spoiler alert Near the end, Hoffman's character is upset that the President's re-election is credited to something else instead of his handiwork. Even when told he's risking his life if he says anything, he yells "I want the credit!". I think a similar psychology may be at work in this and other crimes that become (in)famous.


I _think_ what you're getting at is saying the suspect wants the credit, in response to the parent saying the next one will be better at evasion by learning from his mistakes, right? And implying the next one might not want to evade either? I have no speculation here just looking for clarification on the movie reference.


Yes, that's what I'm trying to say. Obviously anybody who goes to the trouble of penning a manifesto is a hero/protagonist in their own narrative. When they see that their acts have captured the attention or even admiration of a significant portion of the public, the urge to stand up and say "I'm the one who did this great deed, and here's why" will often overpower the instinct for self preservation.


This is the topic of the wonderfully named Edgar Allan Poe short story, The Imp of the Perverse:

https://standardebooks.org/ebooks/edgar-allan-poe/short-fict...


I look forward to the retro on this.


It’s all very convenient and airtight, very nicely packaged.

I’m not saying it’s not exactly what it looks like, just kinda makes me think huh. Either the perp really wanted to be caught, or someone really wants to close this case. I’m going with he wanted to be caught, since he’s apparently not an actual idiot.

So just a relatively smart privileged dude swept away by dark ideology? It wouldn’t be the first time. If there’s any more to it, we won’t likely know.


I don’t think so, per article:

He "became quiet and started to shake" when asked if he had recently been to New York, according to the criminal complaint filed in Pennsylvania.

Being smart can lead to arrogance, which leads to stumbles. like carrying evidence, dining in public, etc.


I am reading 'The Man Who Fell To Earth" and it's about this supposedly very smart martian who makes very basic mistakes that led to his capture. There is a quote, something to the effect, 'it's amazing the number of things you just don't think about'. Which I think is true and why people got caught. Truth is, he had a lot on his mind and that can make you very clumsy.


I doubt he was arrogant. I think he was on the run and didn’t have any place to put away the evidence. Probably homeless this whole time. And had to go to get food at some point.


Probably hadn't really thought through the specifics of tossing evidence.

Bodies of water are popular for disposing of things, because it's a huge PITA to find things there. Imagine how hard it might be in a large local pond, and then multiply that in complexity for a rather big river. Or an inland sea like the Great Lakes. Don't even multiply for those; it's a stupidly big irrelevant number.


It's hard to find cars 20 ft from the shore and a huge number of missing persons disappear that way accidentally driving in.


It's been several days, he had plenty of time to wipe stuff down and dump it. I don't think this is arrogance necessarily, perhaps isolation and paranoia.


> I doubt he was arrogant. I think he was on the run and didn’t have any place to put away the evidence. Probably homeless this whole time. And had to go to get food at some point.

He totally did. Find a trash can, and put it in (though maybe disassemble the gun first, and dispose of it in pieces in multiple locations).


He says in the manifesto that they won't take him alive. He planned to go out shooting, then wimped out.


_Alleged_ manifesto. We still don't know if it's real.


This. I expect a lot of fake/AI generated scams will be banking on this media hype to make some money while the iron is hot.


Ah yes, stupid people, famously never arrogant


My guess is that he assumed he'd be caught early, wasn't, and then got a bit overwhelmed with the reality of staying on the loose. That would've been overwhelming: finding places to sleep, transport, eating, etc. A gun and ID might've felt like tools that still had use, so he was yet to discard them.

Why you'd eat-in at a fast food place rather than just go via some low level Chinese takeaway though!


>A gun and ID might've felt like tools that still had use

Exactly. A gun, even without ammo, still allows you to get out of hairy situations: steal a car, force someone to drive you somewhere, etc

>Why you'd eat-in at a fast food place rather than just go via some low level Chinese takeaway though!

Maybe he though he'd be more anonymous in a major fast food chain, and you stand out more in a Chinese place.


If that's the case, you make a call to a reporter — and then walk into a police station to surrender to authorities.


Only if you have no sense for drama.

That's not this guy.


Drama has too often allowed the suspect to be shot on sight.


He killed a CEO not a cop. If he'd gone after the police they'd likely have burned that McDonald's to the ground with him inside (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dorner)


I’m sure the police have orders to “take him alive.”


It doesn’t matter what the brass say when giving orders. If the officer says the magic words during debriefing (after the shooting), he gets off scott free.

What are the magic words? I don’t know them, but I know that the lawyers who work for police unions know them and the trainers who train police officers drill those into the heads of officers.

The core problem with the jurisprudence: if a reasonable officer had a fear for themself or for members of the public, then fatal shootings in the line of duty are usually justified. The objective facts at the scene don’t matter; only the officer’s perception. If only all citizens were given the same rights…


The magic words are, "I feared for my life," or "I feared for my safety."


They have body cams don't they? If they just shoot a suspect and the body cam suggests no threat to the officer's life, they're in trouble.


If by trouble you mean "get a pension to compensate them for the metal harm they suffered from the shooting" then you're right. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Daniel_Shaver)


“They’re in trouble”

Did you not understand my post, or do you not believe my claim?

The objective facts (as established by a body cam) matter very little, only a good faith belief that “I feared for my life or the life of someone in the public”.

Why? The burden of proof is “Innocent until proven guilty” and like I said, the onus is on the prosecution to prove that the officer’s statement that “they feared for their life” was a lie at the time of the incident. That’s extremely difficult to prove, especially when an officer has been on the job for a while and has been conditioned to use the right words to CYA.


No penalty for just turning it off.


Are they? Paid leave for a few years while it’s investigated, then back to work.


I mean if he's giving himself up, why not gift a mcdonald's employee 60k?


I can't help but think of another nyc shooter, Frank James, who was also caught at a McDonald's after turning himself in.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/search-new-york-subway-gunm...


More evidence that McDonalds is really bad for you.


A lot of people who commit crimes are suffering from a range of untreated mental illnesses. They are not always firing on all cylinders all of the time, leading to weirdness like this.


Most folks with mental illnesses live among us, not in mental institutions. If on a scale 1-10 you have something like bipolar on 1 or 2, you can sort of function with some meds. Sort of, until SHTF and emotions go haywire. Keeping relationships is hard, be it personal or professional, so folks struggle but from outside they often just appear 'weird'.

Wife is a GP doctor, maybe 1/3rd of her patients have some form of this.


100% this. I've seen stats saying 20% of people in jail have untreated mental illness. I've spent a lot of time in jails and I would say it has be 80%+ because a lot of people can function enough to live in society and hide their symptoms until the point where they do something criminal.


This guy had bad back problems and got surgery but it was probably ongoing. He got kicked off his parents insurance at 26 and ran out of money.


He was working for TrueCar as a data engineer, he had employee provided health insurance.


Also (I'm hoping) the trauma of taking another person's life must be hugely upsetting. I'm hoping it's not something you do lightly, and is not without personal consequences (guilt,shame, shock,.. dunno).


Why would you hope that?

Can you really not think of anyone where it would be better if they were... not there anymore?


1. This guy has a tight alibi and the shooter is elsewhere.

2. This guy has a terminal illness.

3. This guy is bankrupt after healthcare debt + buying backpacks.


Or the most obvious case of setup ever.


can be both killer's and police's setup too


He could be taking lots of medication for his back pain which could cause him to think not so rationally


> including the fake ID he used at the hostel

I've stayed at that place multiple times, though years ago.

They did check ID, but never copied it.

I wonder how they knew it was fake.


Do they record names of guests? It would take two seconds to ask the NJ DMV if someone by that name exists. If they don't, then the ID was probably fake. If there is someone by that name, showing the real ID photos to the hostel receptionist would quickly clear up whether the ID is fake or not. The receptionist flirted with him and got him to show his face so there's a good chance she'd be able to look at some photos and say whether any of them look like the guy.


Last time I was there they wouldn't even record NJ.

They recorded name on reservation and maybe DOB.

The place had cameras everywhere apart from inside rooms and bathrooms.

I can't believe that was the only time they got him on camera.


>Last time I was there they wouldn't even record NJ.

>They recorded name on reservation and maybe DOB.

I'm sure the cops can run the same name/DOB combination through the databases of all 50 states + DC, and rule out any that don't match the surveillance footage.


So, according to this:

https://www.foxnews.com/live-news/unitedhealthcare-ceo-brian...

“I was informed... that defendant presented a forged New Jersey Driver’s License with the name of Mark Rosario as his identification, which based on the number on it was the same identification defendant presented at the hostel,"

So the hostel saved at least the number.

This was not the case at least 2 years ago. I'm absolutely certain.


Once the police traced the suspect to the hostel, wouldn't they check the relevant IDs?


What ID?

The hostel had none. They never copied it.

They never wrote ID numbers either.

They checked the name and that was it.

Unless it changed in the last year or so.



The only part I don't get now is the cell phone

I assumed he had some help with the timing via the burner phone

But this all looks very lone wolfish now


https://support.substack.com/hc/en-us/articles/360037870412-...

If real, he scheduled a post to be released everyday at ~6pm EST. If he wasn't caught that day he would delete the scheduled post, and reschedule for the next day at 6pm.

I say 6 because it was the earliest snapshot of the site. Looks like the post just got taken down off sub stack and I can't view the exact time of post.

That's likely how it happened


I still don't get how he knew where the guy would be


If you're a shareholder you get a postcard in the mail with the time and address of public meetings.


But not "he will leave the building at this 30 second interval. As needed for a walk up on a busy city street that is well policed.


Honestly I think it was luck.


He had 10 days to find out on site.


Yeah, the timing is a question I still have. At first it sounded like he was only there a few minutes before the CEO appeared. Later information sounds like he might have been hanging around outside for longer. I haven't seen a knowledgable evaluation of how plausible it is that he would have known where Thompson was going to be based only on public information.


Yes, how do you know the whereabouts of a CEO?


> Yes, how do you know the whereabouts of a CEO?

You might know about their public appearances such as for shareholder meetings but how would you know which hotel they're staying at and that they would leave said hotel at 6:45 AM(!) and walk(!!) to the meeting venue?

Either massive luck on the shooter's side or there is a source of information that hasn't been discovered yet.


If this is a vendetta, the goal was achieved and there was nothing more to do. He had to give himself two goals, the vendetta and not get caught, which is more difficult than one goal. A hired killer would pursue both goals routinely as a mean to stay in business but not an amateur and anyway not as effectively.


Agreed. He seems to be smart enough to never be caught. Could just be the need to be liked/famous/known. On the other hand, he might not have expected to be noticed by someone who knew him. That's a real 0.01% you can't predict in your perfect planning.


He doesn't seem smart at all... He took off his mask in front of a camera to flirt with a receptionist. He left a long extensive trail of evidence. He manifesto sounds like it was written by a 14 year old. It only took him four days to get caught. Like most criminals, he is not smart.


Is having bugs in your code proof that you're not smart, or is it more likely momentary carelessness or even just that humans always have a non-zero error rate?


It’s very difficult to not get caught in a total over militarized surveillance state. He is not stupid


Less than 50% of murders are solved these days[1]. If he hadn't been carrying around all of the evidence and was more careful with the mask he very well may have gotten away with it, the NYPD had no clue who or where he was

[1] https://www.npr.org/2023/04/29/1172775448/people-murder-unso...


Do you honestly believe all crimes are equally investigated with the same diligence and budget like in a tv show?


No, but most murders aren't done by complete strangers who live far from the crime scene either. When they are, and they are careful, they are extremely hard to catch


name 5 high profile ones in the last decade? :)

all of those you are referring to are not plastered 24/7 over all media world-wide


Most murderers don't target the capitalist elite though.


This. If you or I would have been gunned down on the street, do you think the police would have had such a manhunt going on?


Like most criminals who get caught*


How many similar crimes go unsolved? It can't be common. I doubt it's a matter of just being smart.


> seems he wanted to be found

He was presumably en route somewhere. Disposing of a fake ID such that forensics can’t get anything useful off it isn’t easily done on the run / incognito. (And if his inspiration is the Unabomber, he presumably had more targets.)


Surely you recognize that all you need to do is to rub it on some concrete for a couple of minutes to completely destroy it right? Not to mention if you owned a pair of scissors or a lighter or something…


> you recognize that all you need to do is to rub it on some concrete for a couple of minutes to completely destroy it right

You're going to take time away from your actual escape to make yourself less incriminating in case you are caught? Should he have been grinding up IDs at the Greyhound bus terminal in New York? Right after the whole city heard about the shooting? Or should he have waited until after the FBI plastered the nation with his face?

> if you owned a pair of scissors or a lighter or something

Scissors won't take care of fingerprints, let alone DNA. As for the lighter, again, where do you propose he do this without attracting attention?

Actually, I could see him having thought this would be easy to do, maybe even packing a lighter and scissors, only to realise in execution that you can't start burning IDs on a bus without someone noticing.


Respectfully, none of what you’re describing is real life. Police don’t go around fingerprinting random pieces of plastic.

You can just deface it in any way and throw it out the window on a highway or into any trash can and it will quite literally never be found.


> Police don’t go around fingerprinting random pieces of plastic

No. But you don't know how far behind they are when you dispose of it. It only becomes random plastic after they've lost your trail.

> can just deface it in any way and throw it out the window on a highway or into any trash can

Sure. Or you can keep it until it can be safely disposed of. Which carries fewer risks? We don't even have to hypothesise, we know for a fact that the IDs on his person didn't cause him to get caught. We also know him not having the IDs on him wouldn't have caused him to be less caught.


I would think that getting rid of the evidence is the integral part of planning a crime. Otherwise it is sloppiness. There is a lot of ways to do such things I am sure, but you have to thought it through before. He didn't or the adrenaline was too much for him.


He had four days to come up with a way to get rid of a few pieces of plastic.

Now I'm not a valedictorian, but I'd like to think I could achieve that.


Maybe he saw how the world basically thought he was an amazing hero and he wanted to let people know who he really is.


I think this might actually be it - he may have been motivated in some part by fame (but planned to be anonymous and get away with it) and after the hugely positive online response decided to purposely get caught.

Trial for this could be hugely publicized


If you wanted to get the message out, you could go to a media org for interview and then call police in.

I wonder if cops were monitoring major news offices because of this.


I'm real interested in how a trial goes. Can you even find enough people in America who haven't been bent over by insurance to form an unbiased jury? I find it hard to imagine any jury would convict him.


This is wildly unrealistic.

Many people have not been bent over by insurance, but that's the less confusing part of this post.

Almost everyone who has been bent over by insurance will still find someone who assassinated another dude guilty.


I generally agree but think it’ll depend on how sympathetic his case is and what defense he tries. I believe New York juries have to reach a unanimous decision and if he had one of those insurance horror stories it wouldn’t be unheard of for at least one juror to feel sympathetic to, say, a provocation defense and only find him guilty of lesser charges.


Not guilty must also be unanimous. If the jurors can’t agree it’ll be retried. Usually lone holdouts capitulate.


Yes, as I said the mostly likely outcome is guilty but it wouldn’t shock me if, say, he wasn’t convicted on every charge. Juries introduce a human element and the response to this murder illustrates how many people really hate insurance companies. Something over 10% of Americans say they know someone who died due to denied care, which is a big enough number that I wouldn’t rule anything out.


There are other stats in play, too. For example, 30% of Americans know a murder victim. 50% have dealt with gun violence. The jury system narrows down to people who can focus on the law and follow the judge’s instructions. The pool of potential jurors is huge. It’s been rare that a trial has changed counties in any state because too many people in a county have strong feelings about the victim or perpetrator. I could see lesser murder charged being brought to keep motivation out of the trial, though. And yes, rule nothing out (in any trial.)


Agreed yet he'll serve some time like Gypsy Rose. A seemingly good hearted victimized murderer who story seems to work out well for her in the end in. She orchestrated killing her mom vs. just running away. If she's smart enough to get her mom killed indirectly using a lonely dude she's smart enough to run away. Murderer who is free with fame. Luigi is now the same yet is this murderer more liked then Gypsy Rose?


Anyone who has been bent over by insurance will not be selected for the jury.


I'm not sure that is even necessary. I know enough people impacted by such things I'm not sure I wouldn't nullify even though I haven't been impacted myself. I don't think they can find 12 people who don't know someone with a bad story.


Isn't that a reverse conflict of interest? That way you are deliberately selecting people that are more/less sympathetic than a baseline of the US population.


It's not as if "he was mistreated by an insurer" is a defence, is it? That should be entirely irrelevant to the jury's finding, although sentencing might take it into account. The jury just needs to decide if he did it, so not having been mistreated by an insurer shouldn't preclude someone from making that decision.


'Shouldn't' is true. But the prosecution does not need to explain why they reject a potential juror by 'preemptive challenge'. Why would they take the chance?

Similarly, a defendant's race is not relevant to their guilt, but you're not going to pick a self-declared racist if you don't have to.


I keep seeing this take, and it seems pretty bizarre to me. Most Americans rate their health insurance as excellent or good [1], and even of the ones that don't, most probably don't support murdering health insurance executives on the street.

They won't have trouble seating a jury, and he'll be convicted of 1st degree homicide and spend the rest of his adult life in prison.

1. https://www.kff.org/private-insurance/poll-finding/kff-surve...


I think the problem is with outliers. Most people don’t have problems with thier health insurance because they don’t interact with it much or just have routine care.

But if you’re unlucky, it can ruin your life or the life of a loved one. It’s not hard to find horror stories - some recent viral ones came from LinkedIn comments to the CEO (written before his murder)


Indeed, when the alternative was to be a nobody, on the lam, for the rest of his life.


How so? All he had to do was continue to fly under the radar for a few more weeks until everyone forgot about it. Being on the lam implies they knew his identity; they did not.


> All he had to do was continue to fly under the radar for a few more weeks until everyone forgot about it.

That is seriously underestimating the attention span of law enforcement. I’m not saying that they would have caught him for sure, but they have motivation and means to keep looking far longer than a few weeks.

> Being on the lam implies they knew his identity; they did not.

At the minimum they had a picture of his face. That stuff will stay in databases indefinietly and face recognition is only getting better. They might have had his DNA from objects he interacted with or things he discarded. They could have traced his burner phone to locations he previously frequented, or where he bought it from. They could have traced him via video surveilance further along his escape and tied him to a location or a car.

None of this is guaranteed to work. There is a certain amount of luck involved. But just because after a few days they didn’t know who he is, doesn’t mean they could not have found him months or years down the road.


The rich don’t just let go of murder investigations.


Another way to think of it would be, how much would it cost for a very rich family or person to hire few people to hunt you for the following 10 years.


So far the record indicates he was better at hunting them than they him.


Is there a word for these types of snarky quips that trigger off a single word but fail to address the point?

I feel like I'm seeing them more and more.

The killer didn't do any hunting. They did shooting and running.


He stalked his prey and killed it. That's hunting. Then law enforcement tracked him and trapped him. Also hunting! But none of the rich family has done any hunting (yet). So far they are the hunted.


why are you romanticizing him? He waited outside a conference. That is like saying I hunted a hamburger at McDonalds.

All of this is besides the central point, which is that a killer would likely be on the run from detectives and maybe PIs for the rest of their lives.


I'm not. Hunting people in a safe democratic society isn't "romantic", it's not "The Most Dangerous Game" or anything else. Your analogy is absolutely accurate. Harvesting an oyster would be another. Still totally hunting (or maybe just gathering).

> the rest of their lives

Only if any of their adversaries survive with sufficient will to fight.


If it happened as they said, they couldn't really track him without the tip off.


He just happened to be at the right place at the right time with the right equipment?

I know a lot of game hunters who would say that’s pretty much the definition of hunting.


Reliable, repeatable coincidences like that are called "skills".


but we can't call it hunting, that's too romantic! it's only hunting when sweaty rich dudes kill animals.


> Is there a word for these types of snarky quips that trigger off a single word but fail to address the point?

They're (attempts at) a bon mot

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bon_mot


I think based on examples I am seeing for what qualifies as a bon mot, it would be different, but since you specified "attempt" in parentheses I guess it could qualify as some sort of attempt.


The thing is I don't think it is a genuine attempt. Is more like an intentionally counterfeit bon mot. It doesn't actually engage with the parent sentiment, but might fool people that are only half reading.


> Is there a word for these types of snarky quips that trigger off a single word but fail to address the point?

No but please let me know when you find one! And indeed you are correct, this is a fairly new pattern and it's absolutely increasing.


Murder is hard on your soul. He wouldn't be able to go back to life as usual.


That CEO didn't seem to have any qualms about killing people


It was indirect, and people always see themselves as the good guy. It's easy to justify in your mind. "I'm saving shareholders money." "Most doctors over service patients, so they are the bad guys." "They would have died anyway," etc.

I would bet a lot of the healthcare CEO's are totally surprised that anyone would want to harm them.


They're not going to hire for a healthcare CEO with high empathy. I mean, think of the shareholders!


It's like profit is at odds with taking care of the patients. Who would have thought.


I feel like a lot of doctors and nurses wouldn’t be doctors or nurses without the decent profit they earn.

I certainly wouldn’t work evenings, nights, weekends, and holidays, not to mention sacrifice my life during my 20s. And be around gross stuff and sad people.

And especially not when you can earn a comparable profit working behind keyboard.


That's... not what I meant. It is one thing to earn (very) good wages and entirely another thing to optimise the whole healthcare for profit. Healthcare is, by definition, a cost center. If you wanted to align incentives (a bit better) you would be paying for it only when you are not ill, not when you are. A decent compromise is what most countries do, which is that citizens pay a fixed sum for health insurance which covers most of the basic expenses. However the incentives are never completely aligned - someone profits from people being ill.


> optimise the whole healthcare for profit.

I don’t understand what this means. A group of doctors get together and open a business offering their services, and they distribute profits into their bank accounts. Or a dentist, or an optometrist, or a podiatrist.

Why would 99% of people do this work if they cannot profit?

> A decent compromise is what most countries do, which is that citizens pay a fixed sum for health insurance which covers most of the basic expenses.

That is just health insurance with $0 deductible/copays. Some US employers do offer this, and some even pay 100% of the premiums.

But these plans don’t sell well to the broader public, because most people would prefer (or can only afford) a lower premium and accept the volatility of having to spend a few hundred or a few thousand before insurance kicks in.


> I don’t understand what this means.

In some (many?) countries the options for private healthcare are limited (by design) and public healthcare takes care of people. Not in USA though. :) It has its pros and cons, but to be honest, neither system works very well. I would pick a public one anytime, but maybe it's just because I know it.

> Why would 99% of people do this work if they cannot profit?

They do profit, and should - they get a paycheck for their work.


If I nonjudgmentally assumed you speak from personal experience, doesn't it also depend on the person, their sensitivity, vulnerabilities etc.?

I have a 3.5 year old toddler and it sure feels hard on my soul right now (he just behaved the worst he's ever behaved in daycare today, to the point that they had to isolate him... and this is me dealing with it after only 3 hours of sleep, since he also keeps waking up every night ever since he turned 3... "sleep regression" should be called "slow parricide via toddler non-sleep")


Please consider reading this book. It changed my life:

    Wahlgren, Anna (2009). A Good Night's Sleep - This is how you can truly help your baby to sleep through the night. Anna Wahlgren AB. ISBN 9789197773614
I'm saying this as a father who was going through the worst time of my life as my baby daughter's top 3 records for "most sleep in one night" was 5 hours (which only happened that one time), 3 hours (which only happened that one other time), and then never ever more than 2 sleep cycles of 45 minutes on any day/night.

Sleep deprivation makes your life so miserable. And it does so for the toddler as well. My daughter couldn't learn to walk and kept falling over because, well, she was just too exhausted.

It seems the book isn't as well known in the US (where I'm assuming you are) as it is in Europe, and maybe there are equivalent approaches from American authors as well. But this is the one that solved the problem and taught her to sleep in 4 - four - nights.

My wife and I applied the stuff from the book from Dec.1st to Dec.4th of 2018. My daughter has not had trouble sleeping her 11+ hours straight a single night since then (that was 6 years ago) except a couple of times when she was teething.

I was recently asked on a (business) podcast what was the top book that changed my life and that was it. To think you could struggle for such a long time, and suddenly find out you could change that in 4 days... I have tears in my eyes whenever I talk about it.

Anyway. Long message to wish you well, internet stranger. It will get better.


Well don’t leave us hanging, what was the stuff that worked for you?


I've found that trying to describe the strategies in a few words usually gets the other person to think "oh, it can't be that simple" and then not actually try it.

Just like, trying to describe the lifestyle changes that got you in shape (which are always going to be the same 4-5 basic things), is less helpful than telling someone "go to the same coach/book I went to, and give it a try".

But in a nutshell, the book teaches a few simple principles of why kids wake up/cry and how what we (as parents) typically do to console the child actually sends the message that "sleeping in this bed is not safe".

Once you get that, it gives you a 4-day (and 4-nights) routine to follow to get the baby/toddler/infant/child to re-learn that this is a safe place, your parents are around, you can go back to sleep. Doing the full 4 days is a two-person job (my wife and I rented a room at the hotel next door and took turns with one of us sleeping there while the other was with our daughter at home).

We followed everything to the letter ; the first couple of days is timed very precisely and you take notes in a journal as you go, which is how I can tell you that we were already tearing up when our daughter slept in 3-hour chunks the 2nd night, did an almost 8-hour streak on night 3 and pulled a full 11-hour night on night 4.

I'll tell you, the least important part of the whole thing is a short lullaby we came up with as we were going to the 4 days, and I still sing that to my daughter 6 years later as I leave her for the night, as this has become a bit of a talisman for me :-) Definitely not needed anymore but I'll probably sing her this song until she leaves for college or tells me to shut up!


This is adorable.

If only I knew what steps to follow on those 4 precious nights...


I looked up this book on Amazon.

"Paperback: From $473"

Yikes. :/

Can't find an ebook of it either...

Willing to sell it or pass it along? (Best Christmas ever? lol)

Thank you for the kind thoughts regardless. It really is a struggle, to say the least.


Oh wow, the English edition must have gone out of print.

I'm going to have a look at whether there's a more popular author with a similar philosophy.


I'd still be interested in that!


> he just behaved the worst he's ever behaved in daycare today

I'm sorry, maybe it's not my place, but... Please listen to him. Children are not stupid, they just lack experience. If he behaves some way then there is a reason for it. The usual suspect is lack of attention (which is very important for a child), since they get more of it (even if in form of punishment) for behaving "badly"... The outcome is predictable.

I found that treating them as adults when it comes to respecting their wishes goes a long way towards raising a good person.

Again, sorry for an unsolicited advice from a random person on the internet. Especially as it sounds like life is very stressful for you right now. Fingers crossed everything gets better soon.


This. I recall both my mother, my wife and my daughter telling me they would get in trouble when they were younger because they wanted attention.


We already do that, but maybe even more is necessary. The problem is that I'm 52 and already had sleep apnea/CPAP, she is 49, and my son is 3. Every day is an exhausting marathon.


I understand, and I know that for each person the circumstances are different. I hope you are both able to find the strength to just - be with him. I wish you all the best!


It gets better.


It may take until their adult brain forms around the age of 23, though.


Wow! … it took me another decade after that!


I bet he saw it as just cause.

The stuff found on him is irrelevant, they'd pin him down with dna and whatever other evidence.


They know what his face looks like and had a bunch of information about his whereabouts prior to visiting the city. It was only a matter of time until they found him. His one bet might have been to cross the border in Mexico.


What about those eye brows though?


Could as well have walked into a police station or uploaded the manifesto on his GitHub.


Maybe he was planning to do another.


This fits.


He didn't want to be found but thought it was a non-zero possibility is being ruled out why?


Yup, looks like a CIA glowop.


or, he didn't think he would get caught and his plan to was move on to victim #2.


Jury nullification!


Jury Nullification!


And he really could have gotten away with it if he wanted to. Im sure he noticed online the vast population of people willing to hide him or provide an alibi.




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