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Agreed, but this brings up the topic of nature vs. nurture, and perhaps even the previously (~90 years ago now?) popular concept of eugenics.

I think society settled on a response of "yeah, but we shouldn't actively do anything about it as a group." It seems to be best left to individuals to seek out parental partners and enjoy the outcomes on a personal level.



> I think society settled on a response of "yeah, but we shouldn't actively do anything about it as a group."

I hope there comes a day when humanity is responsible enough to handle precise gene-tailoring of humans without it devolving into a cliche Sci-Fi dystopia. Until then, I'm glad that humanity has settled on "Eugenics could theoretically work but we know we're not responsible enough to do it right, so let's not". It feels like a very enlightened stance: better than pretending selective breeding would literally not work, and certainly better than doing it badly. Why could we come to such a sensible consensus on this topic but fail to do so on so many others?

All that being said, I still want to see what would happen if Michael Phelps and Katie Ledecky had a child together. You know. For science.


> Why could we come to such a sensible consensus on this topic but fail to do so on so many others?

I would argue that it took thousands of years of history and one of the darkest episodes of humanity in the 20th century to truly realize this.


> I hope there comes a day when humanity is responsible enough to handle precise gene-tailoring of humans without it devolving into a cliche Sci-Fi dystopia.

Power itself is a bit of a paradox - having some is essential to a free society, but too much ends up corrupting its holders and results in human suffering. The power you describe falls in the latter category, IMHO.


IMO, the reason it feels enlightened is that we don't clearly perceive the negative consequences of not doing it. If societal IQ was as pervasively tracked as global temperature, "let's not" might feel as enlightened as "let's not mess with climate engineering."


> If societal IQ was as pervasively tracked as global temperature

Part of the reason we're not ready for it is that any notion of "societal IQ" is simply not as mature, well-understood, proven, or even useful as our understanding of climate science. Scientists who studied the topic understood the greenhouse effect and the potential for CO2 emissions to result in global warming over 100 years ago. Meanwhile, nobody can agree on whether the Myers-Briggs personality test means anything at all.

We just don't have a way to "rate" humans in a general sense, nor is it obvious that increasing their "rating" would even be a good thing. Selecting for humans with the highest IQ would be like selecting for crops that grow the tallest. Sure, sometimes that's a good measure of general health, but it's so blunt compared to the intricate nuances of how DNA works and the huge variety of outcomes we'd like from our crops. Besides, it's just a weird stance to want to create a "superior human". Why do we want to do that? So they can solve humanity's problems (no pressure!)? So we can have sex with them? So we can "purify our gene pool" (shudder)? So they can live a happier life and avoid disease? Some of those reasons are much better than others.

Yes, messing with the climate has risks, but global climate is a lot less complicated than the DNA of a single human. And we know our climate is headed for disaster if we do nothing, so the risk of not messing with it is much higher. Similarly, we know people with certain genes are doomed to a die young or doomed to have certain major disabilities. Those will (and should) be our first targets of human gene editing, because the risks of not doing anything are higher.

And of course we already are practicing a light form of selective breeding at IVF clinics during embryo selection. Mostly they look for chromosomal abnormalities, but I'd guess there are clinics out there that offer more advanced gene selection (if not now, then soon).


This isn't eugenics. People are allowed to choose their mates for their phenotypes, and we don't sterilize (except in very rare, extreme circumstances, with legal approvals) people who don't have specific phenotypes.

It's a gedanken experiment, but I would expect that people who measure low on IQ tests but are raised immersed in an technical or artistic environment have as much potential to become masters as people with higher IQ, or very nearly so. Further, I think that by increasing the quality of the education system in a country, you can massively increase the intellectual output. There are probably enormous amounts of untapped potential never matched to an equivalent supply of knowledge and skill.


but I would expect that people who measure low on IQ tests but are raised immersed in an technical or artistic environment have as much potential to become masters as people with higher IQ, or very nearly so.

I would strongly expect the opposite. But I agree it would be beneficial to figure out which of us is right.


According to the latest studies, IQ is largely determined by early exposure to abstract thought. This is the main reason IQ is still rising in first-world nations where malnutrition hasn't been an issue for generations. If you rob a grade school kid of playground time and learning to share toys, and instead force them to grind out math lessons and computer science problems, their adult IQ will be significantly higher.

They might end up tremendously unhappy, of course. It just goes to show how raw IQ is a silly measure to value, let alone optimize for.


Do you have any links to these latest studies that I can take a look at?

If you're just talking about the Flynn effect, then your conclusion is overreaching.

IQ is still very highly heritable and adjusted for the Flynn effect has very little to do with early exposure to abstract reasoning AFAIK (but would love to see those studies).


> This isn't eugenics. People are allowed to choose their mates for their phenotypes

The fact that something is allowed doesn't make it not eugenics. Choosing your mate for their phenotype is eugenics.


No - eugenics is by definition arranged. If a government nudged you to pair up with someone, that would be eugenics, but if you choose a mate of your own free will, it's not.


How much nudging do you need before it's eugenics? Would it be eugenics if you were to take young men and women, separate them roughly by area of interest and level of intellectual achievement, remove them from the chaperoning influence of their families, and put them in an institution for four years at the perfect time of their life to form pair bonds? What if you additionally supplied them with easy access to alcohol?


Interesting new take: "College: the hidden eugenics program."

This sort of makes sense to me.


> if you choose a mate of your own free will, it's not

If you're choosing mates at all, it means you're judging the value of other human beings. You're accepting some and rejecting others based on what you think or feel is best. It's just eugenics practiced by the general population according to highly variable personal criteria.

This is not inherently superior to some explicit eugenics program. It's about the principle of individual autonomy.


its not eugenics because it's not population scale, it's individual. Your interpretation does not correspond to any mainstream understanding.


I wish this could be discussed more openly. I feel the same way.


I don't think that's entirely Fair. Anything you learned at a young age you're going to have more potential in. If you were introduced to X as a kid, you have years of doing or practicing X that someone else will never have, and those years come when your brain is still developing.

In my area the schools are providing computers at a young age and spending time teaching STEAM topics, for example. It's not going to make everybody into Nikola Tesla, but the effort to do something about it does exist.


Fundamentally, even ignoring the ethical problems, eugenics doesn't work. The interactions between nature and nurture, genetics, epigenetics, etc. are waaaay to complex (and even multi-generational) to boil down to a simple decision to allow/deny birth.


i mean, we should be able to get to a future when everyone can enjoy in the bounty produced by technology, it is arrogant to think humans with their limited wisdom can determine who gets to breed and who doesn't




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