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No, the alternatives are any number of other solutions that are not given a look-in to the very lucrative duopoly. The network effects are prohibitive for upstarts.

Can you give an example ?

It's also a story, and quite an enjoyable and well written one at that. My 8 year old son enjoyed being read it.

As I recall about half my class enjoyed it, and half hated it. I have nothing wrong with you being in the half that liked it. However I remain in the half that didn't like it.

Is the purpose of school to make you do things that you'll enjoy?

That is one of the 3 purposes of school. The other two are to get a good job, and to make you a better citizen of the world... (there might be more, but those are the 3 I've come up with).

Animal Farm tries to be the last, but the flaws in it mean I can't take it seriously and so it fails. Well maybe it soft of works because nearly everybody has read it, but again, the flaws are so bad I can't take anyone seriously who cites it and so I consider it a failure.


I think you're quite confused about what Animal Farm is. It's a short work of fiction. It's not something that you'd "cite" in support of a particular point, and it wasn't written with the intention of making the reader "a better citizen of the world". Of course it has obvious satirical and allegorical elements, but there's no He-Man-style PSA at the end of it.

The purpose was to make a statement about communism which in turn means it was intended to be the last.

> which in turn means it was intended to be the last.

That's a bold and misguided assertion of authorial intent.

Since you're a fan of the scientific method: you can please cite sources in support of your claim?


Read all the other replies. In particular foldr (sibling to yours) is a very good analysis that makes my point while looking like a rebuttal.

I read it. It's definitely a rebuttal.

That's a non sequitur. But you see, this is the exactly kind of thing that a high school literature class could usefully dig into.

We know that Orwell was thinking of the Russian Revolution when he wrote the book. Many events in the story have obvious historical parallels to it.

On the other hand, Orwell was also a political journalist who wrote political essays. If his primary aim in writing the book was to make a specific critique of communism, why did he decide to express that critique as a work of fiction with talking animals? He would certainly have been aware that such a work is inherently open to wider interpretation.

Do you really think that a class of reasonably intelligent high school students couldn't find any moral in the story that's not inherently tied to communism? There are clearly all sorts of analogies that can be drawn between the story and historical or current events. And there are all sorts of conclusions you can draw. Maybe the animals should never have had a revolution in the first place; maybe they should have, but they went about it the wrong way, etc. etc.


>Is the purpose of school to make you do things that you'll enjoy?

ideally, yes, enjoyment should be one purpose of school. it's much easier to teach when students are enjoying learning.

learning to engage with something that you don't enjoy is also important, though, and why i think some of "the classics" should still be required reading.


This is kind of the point. We simply don't have a sufficiently good understanding of food and nutrition to be able to say "smoosh these nutrients ands other food derivatives together and you get a healthy food".

UPFs is exactly the smooshing, and is generally done to maintain palatability whilst saving money, not even in an attempt to make a healthy food. Sure, Huel has a different goal, but I'm not sure the end result is any different. Just because it's not hyper palatable, it doesn't mean it's healthy.


Tofu is often used as a meat replacement and is Nova classification 3 at most.

I agree, it is used in place of meat, but I think that it is not usually intended to mimic meat. For example, I think that few people would claim you could use tofu as a drop-in recipe replacement without affecting flavor, whereas meat replacers like Impossible are intended to be able to do exactly that.

TBF, the original post used the precise phrasing "plant based meat replacement", which IMO covers this like tofu as well as impossible burgers.

The Nova classification is generally how people interpret this stuff. Generally speaking ultra processing isn't something you do in your own kitchen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nova_classification

> Generally speaking ultra processing isn't something you do in your own kitchen

I don't think that's a useful distinction. Many people make pasta noodles or sausage in their own kitchens, for example, and both of those are ultra-processed by every definition.

Also, IMHO, it's a mistake to think of UPFs as only finished food products you get from the grocery store or from restaurants. Many ingredients people use in what they would very much insist is "home cooking", are themselves UPFs, and so cause the resulting "home-cooked" food to be a UPF.

The FDA's recent categorization of sandwiches as generally being UPFs, for example, is due in part to people using UPF breads like Wonderbread for sandwiches; and in part due to people using reconstituted/preserved deli meats in sandwiches; but it's also due to even people who think they're being healthy, smearing a UPF "sandwich spread" onto their sandwich bread at the end. (A grilled cheese grilled in butter is a highly-processed food. A grilled cheese grilled in mayo is a UPF, because shelf-stable grocery-store mayo is a UPF.)


No, none of pasta, noodles or home made sausages are UPFs by the Nova classification.

Even benefits etc are too late. The money should be spent on providing hope for people. It's 45 years of neoliberalism that we are reaping.


> The money should be spent on providing hope for people.

How do you suggest that would work? Obviously you can’t just buy hope, so could you provide some specific ideas?


Yes, develop an economy that is not run for rent seekers. Provide a job guarantee so everyone can work at a wage floor. Build housing stock that is actually affordable and desirable for anyone on a normal wage. Make sure healthcare is affordable and available universally. Provide schools that are good regardless of where you live or what you can afford. Those things would be a start.


It's all gambling. You can dress it to as having a social purpose, but that's not why most people do it - they want the numbers to go up. The stock market is exactly the same - middle class gambling.


Buying small pieces of businesses isn't gambling. The fact the price moves around a lot isn't the point of it, it's just a result of people buying/selling. In gambling, the risk itself is the point.


> You can dress it to as having a social purpose, but that's not why most people do it - they want the numbers to go up.

Too cynical. This disqualifies basically anything you can do with money. If you put it in a bank to get interest you are solidly into the not-gambling end of the scale. And I don't think an index fund is that much more to the gambling side.


> If you put it in a bank to get interest you are solidly into the not-gambling end of the scale

Isn't that a bet that your government won't devalue your currency fast enough?


Inflation is a risk. A real, underlying, unavoidable risk. People with that risk aren't gambling.

You are conflating risk with gambling. You can go through life without gambling, you can't go through life without risk.


Not really. The question is are you working for your money or are you hoping the money will provide free rent for you. If the latter, you're gambling. The only reason it's relatively risk free is because the system has been thoroughly stitched up in favour of the rent seekers.


I'm confused by the ideas you're combining here. Do you think all forms of rent-seeking are gambling or just ones that involve money in a direct way?

The only risk in a bank deposit is up at the "societal collapse" level. Are you really so extreme as to say that's gambling, and if so isn't having money at all a form of gambling?


The point is largely around expectation. Sure, the base case of putting money in a bank is very safe, but the interest on that is not. Factor in inflation and its pretty easy to get negative returns on bank deposits.

If you fiddle with "investments" with the intent of making money without doing anything else, that's gambling.

Sticking money in the bank with the hope that it's still there next time you come back to it is not really gambling. You're just doing the default thing.


> Factor in inflation and its pretty easy to get negative returns on bank deposits.

But that applies to having money at all. That can't be enough to call it gambling.

> expectation, intent

I understand your argument here, but I disagree. Shifting to the bank that offers the best rate is good management, not gambling. Understanding how interest works and being motivated by interest to do bog-standard money storage doesn't turn that storage into gambling.

> without doing anything else

I don't understand how this connects at all. Maybe it reflects badly on you if you want to turn money into free income, but that doesn't make it any more or less of a gamble. It's a totally different axis.


>But that applies to having money at all. That can't be enough to call it gambling.

It is, because there's no choice not to gamble. You have to make choices, and none of those choices are risk-free. The options are on a scale between low-risk negative-return and high-risk high-return. But the risk is never zero - not even in FDIC insured accounts - and there's an element of randomness involved in the outcomes.

That's the point. There's no option to say "I have this store of value, and if I don't do anything with it it will retain its value forever."

It won't. So you're forced into risk assessment and randomness, not just with money but with assets in general.

This is the foundation of the economy. All non-trivial transactions are based on risk/reward estimates, and some parts of the economy can force risk and hazard on others.

It's not just a casino you can never leave, it's a casino where the management use various tricks to siphon money from your assets into their pockets without giving you any agency over what happens.


Government-backed bonds are the intended zero-risk option. You know exactly how much you will get and it is designed to track inflation (sorta).

If you don't believe in that, precious metals are another way to go. I don't personally subscribe to that theory but that's the idea.


I think your parent's point is even larger than that. To be alive is to engage with risk. There are no stores of value that withstand all decay.


If everything is gambling then we lost track of what we were doing and need a new word for what we're trying to regulate. The answer is not to give up because it's a spectrum, it's to mark off thresholds.


All you are saying is "there is unavoidable risk in the world". Yes, there is.

Gambling is creating risks that don't need to be created, for their own sake. Some people like risk all by itself - gamblers.


There's a difference between unavoidable risk and imposed financial risk, much of which is caused by the financial industry itself.

Being killed by a meteorite is a statistical issue. Having your house stolen by a bank during a manufactured recession is a crime, and should be avoidable.

Yes, that was actually happening after 2008. For example:

https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna40777392


Fair point re seeking the best return given the same risk profile.

Allow me to refine my point: It's gambling when you seek to increase your risk profile in the hope of gaining higher returns, without actually doing anything else other than "invest" the money.


> It's gambling when you seek to increase your risk profile in the hope of gaining higher returns

I generally agree, but I don't think it's a binary. If an insured bank is 10% gambling then an index fund is 20% and roulette is 100%. And the snow derivative sounds like it's probably above 80%.

> without actually doing anything else other than "invest" the money.

I don't see why this changes whether it's gambling. Investing in a restaurant and starting your own restaurant are both very risky bets.


> If you fiddle with "investments" with the intent of making money without doing anything else, that's gambling.

There are lot of value investors which sit at home do stock picking occasionally. They don't work for their money. I don't think they are gambling.

The only investors that fits your non gambling definition seems to be the active investors who take part in the companies. But most investors don't


Why don't you think they are gambling?


Because investing conservatively is not gambling. Your definition of gambling is weirdly associated of how money is made, instead of risk making. Nobody uses this word in this way. Gambling is about of risk. It's not about how you are making the money

For example, it's also possible to be actively taking part in the money making activity while taking unnecessary risk. A person can run his own company but recklessly making bets on the loan or spending decisions. So this is the other side of the story where they are gambling and they are actively working with their money.


That's the point. Most financial investment is really putting money into something higher risk to get a (hopefully) higher return. Most "investing conservatively" is just being a bit more wary as to what risks are acceptable.


> That's the point. Most financial investment is really putting money into something higher risk to get a (hopefully) higher return.

It's about risk adjusted returns, not higher returns. If you are not considering the risk assessment you are objectively wrong. Take my previous example, how is actively working with you money by taking higher risk less gambling, than passively investing for example an all weather portfolio which is designed to preserve the capital? An all weather portfolio is firstly proposed by Ray Dalio to be as conservative as possible to hedge against all kind of risks while hopefully get some gain.

> Most "investing conservatively" is just being a bit more wary as to what risks are acceptable.

That's objectively wrong. For example lots of etf is designed to reduce risk by diversifying the investment. Just take your own just put money in the bank example. Suppose you do not live in stable country US/EU, and your country is having high inflation. How is just putting money in the bank with your country's depreciating currency less risky than let's say you invest in a global portfolio or an all weather portfolio? In this case, by not managing your risk profile, you are taking more risk.

I am only giving out 1 example to show that `Most financial investment is really putting money into something higher` is objectively wrong. It's actually the opposite if you look into how portfolio managing works. Majority of the funds managed for the Sovereign state or the rich are about hedging against the risks, it's the opposite of gambling.


Because they aren't creating risk. They already have risk - any time you have capital, you have risk it disappears.

You don't have risk that the lakers win tonight. You don't have to bet on the game.


That fact it's the default thing isn't the issue. Putting money in the bank is not gambling because you have the underlying risk no matter what. Just holding cash has risks. Any time you try to take some value today and turn it into value tomorrow, you have risks.

Gambling is creating risks for their own sake.


> Not really. The question is are you working for your money or are you hoping the money will provide free rent for you. If the latter, you're gambling.

So putting money in my savings account is gambling, but investing in businesses is not.

I suspect I misunderstand your point completely.


They're saying that investing is your neighbor's business is gambling but starting your own business with the money isn't.

But if it's the same risk I don't see why.


> The stock market is exactly the same - middle class gambling.

Our entire society is based on being forced to gamble. If you don't invest your money in some capacity then inflation will eat you alive.


@hgomersall: emerging from a lucky orifice is in fact the main thing in life if you think about it. After all, we are collectively a computer made of monkeys, and the function it is computing is natural selection. Kin selection is one aspect of it. Everything else - including money and innovation - is window dressing.


Sure, so should we, as society, reward it further by also providing more free money?


Well, society is welcome to try to stop them.

These appeals usually go like this: we should stop providing more free money to the people who are strong enough to go and take it. Individually we are weaker, so let's stop this collectively. But someone needs to lead the collective. And just like that - you have created another strongman who will just take what he can. In other words: Communism.


Why should having money ever give you a return on that? I ask that question in the context of moral philosophy, not a capitalist society. Surely there are better ways to determine how an individual should live that doesn't typically amount to emerging from a lucky orifice?


What's deep research compared to more normal research?


It also picks up and obsesses about weird details. You're in the middle of a deep technical discussion and it will divert to point out that it made a mistake in some example code it's just found.


Or you could just use Firefox.


The only reason that Google keep Firefox around is because they find it beneficial for antitrust reasons.

We should prepare for a future without Firefox, because one day it won't be there anymore.


by supporting google?


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